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Organizations and Companies in the Character Field Options
Warlock
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2012 7:37:19 AM

Rank: Watcher
Groups: Member, Subscriber

Joined: 3/13/2007
Posts: 909
Points: 111,391
Location: Fairhaven MA
I had submitted a new entry for the character field which was a company which was rejected.

I would like a little discussion on the issue, because I don't see the point. I would like to highlight that we list a lot of organizations in this field, from teams like the Avengers and Fantastic Four, to organizations like SHIELD, HYDRA, and the like. These organizations play no more or less of a role in a story plot that some of the companies that have been created.

One of the reviewers threw out a perfect example: Roxxon. Roxxon operates no differently than AIM or HYDRA in the Marvel Universe. I would like somebody to make a distinction, because I don't see it.

The rejected entry, Zinco-Davis is a company to Nazi Germany in the Mike Mignola universe of Hellboy/BPRD, and I think that people would appreciate the ability to search the library by stories where Zinco-Davis appears.

As they would Roxxon.

I would like to hear other people's opinions.
Tamwood
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2012 8:02:18 AM

Rank: Herald of Galactus
Groups: Approver, Member, Subscriber

Joined: 11/13/2009
Posts: 1,536
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Location: Indiana
If I recall correctly from a previous forum post, the decision was made to not allow "real-life" companies, or their fictional counterparts. For instance, the Los Angeles PD isn't allowed, and neither is the Gotham PD.

I personally hate having the Team Names listed as characters, and remove them whenever I do a CR.

Generally speaking, tho, CCL allows (and encourages) people to make numerous pointless CRs for characters that have a fleeting appearance, never to be seen again. I don't see what a company that only a handful of Mignola fans would know or give a fig newton about would be any different.
SwiftMann
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2012 8:06:35 AM

Rank: Beyonder
Groups: Approver, CCL Feature Crew, CR-Guidelines, Member, Super Seller

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My 2c as someone who voted against it.

It was decided long before the Approvers came along that character items like SHIELD and Hydra and AIM would represent the nameless (and often faceless) minions of major fictional organizations, so that when there was a panel like the one below, there was some identification.



Listing a company like Zinco-Davis is like Roxxon, LexCorp, WayneTech or Wolfram & Hart. There generally aren't droves of nameless and faceless employees in the stories,so they can get their credit. And what really classifies an appearance by a company? When they are in the building? When two or more employees get together at a bar for happy hour?

Personally, I put company names, more or less, into the same category as things like Batarangs and Invisible Planes and the X-Men's Blackbird - I guess it'd be interesting to one day list those items, but they don't belong mixed in with characters.

Has DC Done Something Stupid Today?

"The return of beards and 90's fashion makes hipsters and homeless people impossible to tell apart." - Woody, Quantum & Woody #5
crackerjack1
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2012 9:07:51 AM

Rank: Herald of Galactus
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Joined: 1/5/2007
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Location: Boston, MA
Tamwood wrote:
I personally hate having the Team Names listed as characters, and remove them whenever I do a CR.


Why are you removing good data???


Current Pull List

Ongoing Series

All-New Invaders, All-New Ultimates, All-New X-Men, Amazing X-Men, Angel & Faith, Astro City, Avengers, Avengers World, Batman, Batman Eternal, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Daredevil, Earth 2, East of West, Fantastic Four, Flash, Ghostbusters, Grimm, Guardians of the Galaxy, Harley Quinn, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, Inhuman, Injustice, Iron Fist, Justice League, Lazarus, Mega Man, Moon Knight, New Avengers, New Warriors, Nova, Quantum & Woody, Scooby-Doo, Scooby-Doo Team-Up, Secret Origins, Sinestro, Star Wars, Superior Foes of Spider-Man, Superior Spider-Man Team-Up, Teen Titans Go!, TMNT, TMNT Color Classics, TMNT New Animated Adventures, Tomb Raider, Ultimate Spider-Man, Uncanny Avengers, Uncanny X-Men, Velvet, WWE Superstars, X-Men

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Danger Girl: Mayday, Deadpool vs Carnage, Forever Evil, Origin II, Original Sin, Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy Prelude, Serenity: Leaves on the Wind, Superman Unchained

All Spider-Man and TMNT Appearances and Variants
Warlock
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:03:51 AM

Rank: Watcher
Groups: Member, Subscriber

Joined: 3/13/2007
Posts: 909
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Location: Fairhaven MA
Tamwood wrote:
If I recall correctly from a previous forum post, the decision was made to not allow "real-life" companies,


Not applicable for this specific case, but understandable.

Tamwood wrote:
I personally hate having the Team Names listed as characters, and remove them whenever I do a CR.

Generally speaking, tho, CCL allows (and encourages) people to make numerous pointless CRs for characters that have a fleeting appearance, never to be seen again. I don't see what a company that only a handful of Mignola fans would know or give a fig newton about would be any different.


Tamwood, if this were your personal database, I would simply say that I don't agree with you, but you have it your way. However, there is a community of users out there, and there are people interested in many other things other than what you are interested in. I have seen that information had been removed from many changes I had submitted over the years here, and it ticks me off. I am with Crackerjack. I think any approver who removes information that they don't think is important is not serving the interest of the CCL community.

I don't go in for Evil Ernie, nor Walking Dead, nor DC in general. But I don't dismiss the users here who have an interest in them.

To respond to Swiftmann, the employees of company in question in the stories are usually unnamed.
sgriffin
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:54:47 AM

Rank: Celestial
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Location: North Carolina
Warlock wrote:
I think any approver who removes information that they don't think is important is not serving the interest of the CCL community.
Tamwood resigned as an approver a while back. :)

Megalomaniac Extraordinaire
Tamwood
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:55:54 PM

Rank: Herald of Galactus
Groups: Approver, Member, Subscriber

Joined: 11/13/2009
Posts: 1,536
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Location: Indiana
That's correct. I resigned as an Approver. So, any time that a team name is removed ... it's approved by someone else.

AND. If you're reading an issue of "The Avengers" ... I'm pretty sure that the Avengers are in it. The same with "The X-Men." If you can't figure out that The X-Men are starring in a comic called "The X-Men" ...

Also, having Cyclops talking to Reed Richards in an issue of Fantastic Four does NOT mean the X-Men as a team made an appearance. It means CYCLOPS made an appearance.

And, just because Spider-Man and Wolverine have to cross over into every other book because Marvel's writers are hacks, doesn't mean that both The Avengers and X-Men should make appearances in every character list.
sgriffin
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:59:51 PM

Rank: Celestial
Groups: Approver, CCL Feature Crew, CR-Policies, Member, Subscriber

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Location: North Carolina
Tamwood wrote:
If you're reading an issue of "The Avengers" ... I'm pretty sure that the Avengers are in it. The same with "The X-Men." If you can't figure out that The X-Men are starring in a comic called "The X-Men" ...
However, that same logic argues strongly for not listing Wolverine on issues of Wolverine, or not listing Richie Rich on issues of Richie Rich. However, we list all of those.

Tamwood wrote:
Also, having Cyclops talking to Reed Richards in an issue of Fantastic Four does NOT mean the X-Men as a team made an appearance. It means CYCLOPS made an appearance.
I don't think anyone is doing that.

Megalomaniac Extraordinaire
Tamwood
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2012 1:25:11 PM

Rank: Herald of Galactus
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Location: Indiana
sgriffin wrote:
Tamwood wrote:
If you're reading an issue of "The Avengers" ... I'm pretty sure that the Avengers are in it. The same with "The X-Men." If you can't figure out that The X-Men are starring in a comic called "The X-Men" ...
However, that same logic argues strongly for not listing Wolverine on issues of Wolverine, or not listing Richie Rich on issues of Richie Rich. However, we list all of those.

Tamwood wrote:
Also, having Cyclops talking to Reed Richards in an issue of Fantastic Four does NOT mean the X-Men as a team made an appearance. It means CYCLOPS made an appearance.
I don't think anyone is doing that.


I accept your counter argument. I still don't LIKE it, but I accept the premise.
Warlock
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2012 2:22:33 PM

Rank: Watcher
Groups: Member, Subscriber

Joined: 3/13/2007
Posts: 909
Points: 111,391
Location: Fairhaven MA
Tamwood wrote:
That's correct. I resigned as an Approver. So, any time that a team name is removed ... it's approved by someone else.


I am not pointing fingers at anyone, simply saying that information shouldn't be removed.

Tamwood wrote:
AND. If you're reading an issue of "The Avengers" ... I'm pretty sure that the Avengers are in it.


...but if the Avengers make an appearance in Captain Marvel...they should be listed. I think we are in agreement on that.
LadyJay
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2012 8:38:20 PM

Rank: Beyonder
Groups: Approver, CR-Policies, Member, Moderator, Super Hero Showdown Host

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Here's the link to the policy for listing Organizations as characters

Announcement: Official Policy Change - Organizations as Characters



Atilla2k
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:12:10 PM

Rank: Herald of Galactus
Groups: Approver, Member, Subscriber

Joined: 10/8/2007
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Location: NY
SwiftMann wrote:
Listing a company like Zinco-Davis is like Roxxon, LexCorp, WayneTech or Wolfram & Hart.... And what really classifies an appearance by a company? When they are in the building? When two or more employees get together at a bar for happy hour?
Personally, I put company names, more or less, into the same category as things like Batarangs and Invisible Planes and the X-Men's Blackbird - I guess it'd be interesting to one day list those items, but they don't belong mixed in with characters.


It's a business or a building not a character... which is not the same thing as S.H.I.E.L.D./A.I.M./HydraShame on You

Warlock
Posted: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:12:32 AM

Rank: Watcher
Groups: Member, Subscriber

Joined: 3/13/2007
Posts: 909
Points: 111,391
Location: Fairhaven MA
Thank you, Lady Jay, for the policy link. Having reviewed it, it seems that:

1. Organizations are treated separately and distinctly from team, and

2. No organization with a real-world equivalent will be considered, and

3. Entries are to be listed as 'member/agent of organization'

I saw in there no distinction between for profit/non-profit/institutional organizations, so I don't see why a company would be precluded, assuming it meets the guidelines (#2). If this submission were 'employee of Zinco-Davis', it would adhere better to the guideline, admittedly.

I'm not sure on Atilla2k's comment, but your point is that a business is not an organization, my comment would be that an organization is a collection of individuals with some sort of structure or hierarchy. Certainly a business is that.
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