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DC versus Marvel/Marvel versus DC title Options
Philli
Posted: Saturday, December 14, 2013 7:11:20 PM

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This is just silly. I understand that the DB uses the indicia as the ultimate source as to where the title comes from but seriously? To break up these four issues is just silly. Can we please just put it back to normal and file it under the same title? I can't imagine that anyone here who organizes there books in alphabetical order would file them away seperatly. No one sorts them seperatly.



padreglcc
Posted: Saturday, December 14, 2013 7:17:48 PM

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As you mentioned, indicia is king for listings. Even if we decided to make an exception, we are not able to undo invalidations. Once a book has been invalidated, it's permanent. That means that even if we did want to merge the two into one, it would mean creating even more invalids in the database. On top of that, it would force sellers to re-list issues they had for sale (right now, all four issues have copies for sale on CCL).

“One of the most sincere forms of respect is actually listening to what another has to say.” ~ Bryant H. McGill

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Tamwood
Posted: Saturday, December 14, 2013 7:31:46 PM

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And, actually, if I had purchased these books for my collection, they'd be filed separately. Just like my JLA/Avengers and Avengers/JLA books are.
Philli
Posted: Saturday, December 14, 2013 7:49:59 PM

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This is ridiculous though. If I were to walk into a comic shop and look up these issues they would be filed under the same header board. I'm paying $30 a year to keep track of and organize my comics, not put them in disarray. There needs to be a point where logic and cleanliness trumps the indicia.



padreglcc
Posted: Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:00:16 PM

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While I appreciate your frustration, this title is not the only one to suffer the same fate as a result of duel publisher and screwy indicia issues. See JLA/Avenger and Avengers/JLA as another example. If a mini-series changes its title after one issue, it's not uncommon for us to keep it together. But when issues of the series are published by two different publishers (not jointly) and their indicies are different, it's our practice to separate them.

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Please make sure you read and understand the Forum Rules here.
Philli
Posted: Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:06:34 PM

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It needs to be trumped. There is another title that I will not mention for fear of it being torn apart. Every issue in the mini has a different title in the indicia. But as it stands for the past 5 years in the DB it has been untouched and in order. Just like you would find it in a comicbook store or personal collection. An exception needs to be made and rules are meant to be broken.



scotteaves
Posted: Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:26:39 PM

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Philli - every recent post I've seen of yours has something to do with changing the way a specific title is cataloged here at CCL. Face it, the answer will always be go by the indicia. Anything that isn't is already on our list to fix.

Xylob
Posted: Sunday, December 15, 2013 8:59:48 AM

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Philli wrote:
This is just silly...
Philli wrote:
This is ridiculous though...
Philli wrote:
It needs to be trumped...
3 statements of opinion, which you are 100% entitled to. Thanks for sharing.
I hope you can accept the fact that not everybody is going to agree with your opinion.
I also hope that you can accept that facts will be more likely to build a rational discussion, but threads based entirely on emotional opinions are more likely to devolve into a rant/tantrum on the part of one or more participants.

CCL's Change Request Guidelines are located HERE.
If you would like to begin a logical, objective, and rational discussion including facts and evidence in regard to why any specific portion should be changed or considered for change, please feel free to begin at any time.
Otherwise, be prepared for more dismissive replies like those above - if you keep stomping your feet and shouting "I WANT IT, I WANT IT, I WANT IT!!!!", it's gonna be awful hard to take you seriously...

Need help with a Change Request?Click here to contact an approver!
Problems with CCL?
Send an email right away (don't delay!) to helpdesk@comiccollectorlive.com
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Xylob's Most Wanted:

G.I.Joe Special Missions TPB 2
Tales from the Transformers Beast Wars: Critical Mass
Youngblood Bloodsport #2 maybe? can you help identify?
SwiftMann
Posted: Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:33:04 AM

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Philli,

I agree that the break apart of miniseries like these is silly. I also understand the logic behind it, which is why I don't get too worked up about it. This is a database, so logic will rule out. It doesn't mean you or I have to file our books under D and M. I sure don't. I file these with the amalgam issues and Access follow-up minis.

I get that things have changed over the years and after a break you're stumbling over them all at once, but thought and discussion were put into each change.

"Words have meaning." - my wife
Xylob
Posted: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:00:55 AM

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Philli wrote:
...Can we please just put it back to normal and file it under the same title?...
Can you please define "normal"?
During my time trying to obtain 2 copies of every issue from "Avengers/JLA", "DC Versus Marvel/Marvel Versus DC", "JLA/Avengers", "Marvel Versus DC/DC Versus Marvel", and all the tie-ins ("Iron Lantern", "JLX", etc etc) I found they were all filed separately, under the title of the actual book - at every LCS I went to. They didn't have any of them filed together "under the same title" because they are not the same title.
"DC/Marvel: All Access" is the only title where I ever found all four issues filed together - because it's the only mini in question here where all issues are under the same title.

These experiences would indicate to me that how the CCL database currently handles these titles is "normal".
You may feel that this too is an opinion, but at least concede that it is one based on facts, observation, experience, and first-hand evidence.

Do I file them this way?
Hell no. But I don't file my funny books like most collectors do anyway.
My personal preferences aren't pertinent to this database though - this isn't Xylob's information database, it's CCL's and it's meant to be used by thousands of people. Customizing a data-base meant for thousands to accomodate the desires of one individual isn't going to happen, and it doesn't matter if it's CCL or any other data-base.

Supposedly, there are a lot of very cool features coming in the new version of the software. From what I've been told so far it will be a far more dynamic tool with greater user-customized options.
I'd love to see some sort of custom grouping ability so I can fire it up, click a button or two, and just see my Superman collection, or just see my Green Lantern collection etc etc etc. That would work for these titles too (I assume).
I'll try to call in for the next conference call and plug the idea - it would have more traction if others wanted it too.
You used to be a very active member of this community but seem to have dropped of the face of the planet for an extended time.
As mentioned previously in this thread, there have been some changes while you were away.
Welcome back Philli! Chime in on the next conference call and let Joe and Steve know what you want to see in the new and improved software.
Become an active part of our community again!

Need help with a Change Request?Click here to contact an approver!
Problems with CCL?
Send an email right away (don't delay!) to helpdesk@comiccollectorlive.com
615-264-4747
Offices are open M-F 8am-5pm Central Time.
You can also e-mail the Chief Brand Officer directly to try to resolve questions/stuff at steve@golocomedia.com for help with password resets, general customer service questions, store order resolution, credit card store updating, questions about comic books and CCL, etc...

Xylob's Most Wanted:

G.I.Joe Special Missions TPB 2
Tales from the Transformers Beast Wars: Critical Mass
Youngblood Bloodsport #2 maybe? can you help identify?
Philli
Posted: Monday, December 16, 2013 9:11:07 AM

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scotteaves wrote:
Philli - every recent post I've seen of yours has something to do with changing the way a specific title is cataloged here at CCL. Face it, the answer will always be go by the indicia. Anything that isn't is already on our list to fix.


This has been my second thread about titles. My first one a couple weeks ago was about the Sandman Recolored TPB's. That was cleared up and I'm on the same page now. Yes, I've been absent for a while and needed a quick refresh. On this particular title though, in my opinion, it should be up for debate.



Philli
Posted: Monday, December 16, 2013 9:13:54 AM

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Xylob wrote:
Philli wrote:
This is just silly...
Philli wrote:
This is ridiculous though...
Philli wrote:
It needs to be trumped...
3 statements of opinion, which you are 100% entitled to. Thanks for sharing.
I hope you can accept the fact that not everybody is going to agree with your opinion.
I also hope that you can accept that facts will be more likely to build a rational discussion, but threads based entirely on emotional opinions are more likely to devolve into a rant/tantrum on the part of one or more participants.

CCL's Change Request Guidelines are located HERE.
If you would like to begin a logical, objective, and rational discussion including facts and evidence in regard to why any specific portion should be changed or considered for change, please feel free to begin at any time.
Otherwise, be prepared for more dismissive replies like those above - if you keep stomping your feet and shouting "I WANT IT, I WANT IT, I WANT IT!!!!", it's gonna be awful hard to take you seriously...


Well, I was opening a discussion about an opinion. Thank you for restating my opinions and following them up with some opinions on my actions.



Philli
Posted: Monday, December 16, 2013 9:27:04 AM

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This is a database. Meant to organize and be used as a resource. By breaking up this title it makes it much more difficult to research. When I went to log in my issues I became confused and couldn't figure out where I was supposed to catalog them in at. Eventually after searching I did figure out what happened. That's quite cumbersome. Hence my thread about the idea of changing the guidelines or making an exception.

Here's an article from February 2007 from Joe...
http://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release/meet-the-new-superhero-of-comic-collecting-software-23883.php

The initial purpose of this program was to get organized. By being so uber critical it would seem that things are straying from the original purpose. When I purchased the four issues from a local shop, they were under the same header board. Any other shop I've seen them in catalogs them in the same fashion. The story reads 1-4. Why split them? Why not keep it easier to look up? Why not make it easier to find in the library? Make it easier for someone to purchase? This program is user driven and can be decided as such.



outcast
Posted: Monday, December 16, 2013 5:40:25 PM
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padreglcc wrote:
As you mentioned, indicia is king for listings. Even if we decided to make an exception, we are not able to undo invalidations. Once a book has been invalidated, it's permanent. That means that even if we did want to merge the two into one, it would mean creating even more invalids in the database. On top of that, it would force sellers to re-list issues they had for sale (right now, all four issues have copies for sale on CCL).
I think that fans and indexers sometimes give more weight to indicia details than publishers and editors do (in fact, I'm more than a little suspicious that editors sometimes intentionally change things in the indicia just for the pleasure of anticipating the grief it will cause to indexers).

A favorite example is Thor (1966–1996). Toward the end of the run, in the 1990s, the indicia title was changing constantly, sometimes for only a single issue. Sometimes it was just Thor, sometimes The Mighty Thor. There may have been other variations.

The thing is, there never was anything definitive about the indicia title; it's always been somewhat malleable. I believe, though, that comics fandom settled on it in the mid-1970s, as a standard less variable than any alternative then available. IIRC, Bob Overstreet was having trouble settling on standard titles that users of his Price Guide could rely on for looking up prices. Also IIRC, Mike Tiefenbacher was the one who suggested using only the capitalized words in the indicia of comic books as a "standard" title (I seem to recall a note to that effect at the beginning of the price listing pages in an early Price Guide; alas, I no longer own all the Price Guides I have ever owned). Since then, though, as publishers proliferated, once "standard" practices like capitalizing titles in indicia have lapsed, and inconsistencies from publisher to publisher (even from issue to issue) have multiplied.

IMO, databases should organize listings by consecutive numbering, and a series ought to be searchable by any title used during the continuously numbered run. Therefore, even though the title that began in 1949 as Superboy and ended in 1987 as Tales of Legion of Super-Heroes had no fewer than five titles during its run (also Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes, Legion of Super-Heroes, and Tales of the Legion), database users ought to be able to search on any of those titles, and receive results including the 1949–87 series, which they could then browse in its entirety. That's a solution that accurately models the reality of the publishing history; separation on every change of indicia title or publisher is not.
LadyJay
Posted: Monday, December 16, 2013 7:10:20 PM

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outcast wrote:

IMO, databases should organize listings by consecutive numbering, and a series ought to be searchable by any title used during the continuously numbered run. Therefore, even though the title that began in 1949 as Superboy and ended in 1987 as Tales of Legion of Super-Heroes had no fewer than five titles during its run (also Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes, Legion of Super-Heroes, and Tales of the Legion), database users ought to be able to search on any of those titles, and receive results including the 1949–87 series, which they could then browse in its entirety. That's a solution that accurately models the reality of the publishing history; separation on every change of indicia title or publisher is not.


That's what the Related Titles field helps do. For both the DC Versus Marvel/Marvel Versus DC and Superboy/Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes/Legion of Super-Heroes... titles you can follow the thread between the titles using the links provided in that field.

Ideally, there would be a way to link issues to multiple titles so that you could look up either Marvel Versus DC or DC Versus Marvel and see the same listings for all 4 issues. Unfortunately, the CCL database, as it exists today, doesn't support that capability, so we have to make decisions and choices based on the way it's set up today.



Philli
Posted: Monday, December 16, 2013 9:12:28 PM

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These are the things I'm talking about. Right now you have to search. Tomorrow it'll be linked. It's making it over complicated. One of Joe's original complaints with other software was it was difficult and "clunky". That's exactly what's happening here. Titles are being over complicated when we have the ability to simplify. "Buy, Sell, Organize" That's what it says right on the logo. Why not take the opportunity to clean up what the publishers didn't?



Spider-Man
Posted: Monday, December 16, 2013 9:18:22 PM

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The DC versus Marvel issues are linked now through the Related Titles field.

Very easy to find the issues from the other publisher.






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SpiderFan.org





comicscastle
Posted: Monday, December 16, 2013 9:34:23 PM

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Philli wrote:
These are the things I'm talking about. Right now you have to search. Tomorrow it'll be linked. It's making it over complicated. One of Joe's original complaints with other software was it was difficult and "clunky". That's exactly what's happening here. Titles are being over complicated when we have the ability to simplify. "Buy, Sell, Organize" That's what it says right on the logo. Why not take the opportunity to clean up what the publishers didn't?
Maybe I'm missing something, but if I have a book that says Marvel vs DC in the indicia & on the cover how is it easier to look for it under DC vs Marvel? Your solution only makes sense if you know the two titles are related. If you don't it makes no sense at all.



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Philli
Posted: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:08:31 AM

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Clearly as a story it reads numbers 1-4. The indicia for issues 1 & 4 say DC versus Marvel/Marvel versus DC. Issues 2 & 3 say Marvel versus DC/DC versus Marvel. It looks to me as if the publishers had already anticipated a dual title and covered it. When the issues were originally added into the DB they were indexed under one title with all four issues together. It seems redundant to seprate them when they are clearly the same series and the publishers already stated the potential for dual titles with a forward slash. But since the order of the words changed, they were separated. This seems to be taking the guidelines to an extreme.



sgriffin
Posted: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:24:08 AM

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It's not extreme - if I look up the title I see in the indicia, I find the book I'm holding. That's the way it's supposed to work. Mashing them together under a single title means you have to chose to list two of the books under a title that doesn't match the indicia.

Some history (if anyone cares): Originally, we couldn't have multiple publishers on a book or in a title. So even though two of these books were published by DC and two by Marvel, when they were originally listed together, half of them had the wrong publisher. There were change wars over this, as some people argued they should all be under DC and some that they should all be under Marvel (surely others remember this). The only way (at the time) to get the DC issues listed as DC and the Marvel issues as Marvel was to split the title. As a side effect of this split, we were also able to fix the titles to match the actual books. Maybe if this were a brand new series and we were making the decision now we might make a different decision. But that's the decision we made then and there's no compelling reason to change it.

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