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MoonKnight1
Saturday, February 22, 2020 11:36:52 AM
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Dan Didio gone, Jim Lee takes over

While not completely surprising I am a bit stunned at how quickly it went down. What do you think this means for DC both short and long term? Good, bad, no effect?

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lcfrick
Saturday, February 22, 2020 12:29:34 PM
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I generally follow writers and artists, but I admit that I don't follow editors and publishers at all, so I had to do a lot of reading to find out who the heck Dan DiDio even was.

That being said, Generation Five sounds like a godawful idea and the mere mention of it causes my gag reflex to act up.

Even more so, Scott Snyder is the the writer that I respect the most out of anyone in the industry and if he was vehemently opposed to G5, then even if I didn't know what it was, that would probably have been enough for me to be against it as well.

Also, apparently DiDio wanted to kill Dick Grayson during both Infinite Crisis and Forever Evil, but was stopped both times. And it wouldn't surprise me if he was behind the recent decision to have him become an amnesiac (Nightwing is literally the only Bat-family title I don't collect because of how much I hated that change).

So, short term it might be bad if Jim Lee isn't able to oversee the editors and keep the metaphorical car between the lines.

But long term I think it'll be good, especially if DC decides to cancel the whole G5 thing. (Hell, dare I even dream that we might get a proper Dick Grayson/Barbara Gordon romance for the first time since Chuck Dixon?)
Thundercron
Saturday, February 22, 2020 7:18:03 PM
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Huh. Hadn't heard of this Generation Five thing. Sounds terrible. Looks like he wanted to make the same mistakes Marvel made in the last several years by replacing long-time characters with new versions.
SwiftMann
Saturday, February 22, 2020 7:44:23 PM
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Thundercron wrote:
Huh. Hadn't heard of this Generation Five thing. Sounds terrible. Looks like he wanted to make the same mistakes Marvel made in the last several years by replacing long-time characters with new versions.

But that's been DC's thing for 60 years.

As for me, I completely bailed on DC 10 years ago with the New 52 and was mostly on the way out for a few years before that. I feel like part of that was Didio's influence on the line.

I have also heard directly from DC employees that, early on at least, he was way too involved with everything to the point he was mucking up story flow for writers.
bluedevil2002
Saturday, February 22, 2020 10:19:49 PM
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DC has been a mess since the New 52. It started off okay, with some extra diversity to the line that hadn't been there for a while. But they mucked up the continuity too much.

And that's actually been DC's biggest problem of the last two decades. They get so tied up in continuity that it's a major plot point of many storylines. I don't know why they keep doing so much work to establish multiverses, and then go in and rewrite the history of the main Earth in a reboot. Just change the focus to a different Earth.

Anyway, New 52 ended up alienating too much of the core fanbase, so DC decided to course correct with Rebirth. And you could almost literally see the power struggle play out in the comics.

Johns develops a two year plan to explain the Rebirth continuity/history. However, he gets sidelined and then Doomsday Clock gets delayed. In the meantime, the main DC line doesn't quite lead up to where Doomsday Clock needed it to be. Metal happens, and then it eventually leads to Year of the Villain. Too many big narratives going on. Doomsday Clock and all of the Rebirth story gets downplayed, while Metal and YOTV are given top billing. So here we are, almost four years after Rebirth #1 came out, and we don't have a definitive conclusion to that narrative arc.

Meanwhile, we have the whole Tom King Batman mess, where he got removed from the main title early. Not to mention what happened when he wrote in a character's death, only intending it to be temporary, but editorial jumping on it and making it permanent.

Then there's the 5G mess. Johns did hint in Doomsday Clock that it could possibly just be a temporary event. And if it's anything other than that, it's a bad idea.

The problem right now is that DC doesn't have a through-line with its past narrative. At what point in history can someone start reading a series and keep going through to the present and still be reading about the same character? That's not clearly defined, because the New 52 reboot was partially adjusted by Rebirth, and then they still like to reference certain post-Crisis events, and even some pre-Crisis stuff. And I won't lie, those cracks were starting to show before Flashpoint, because certain creators kept wanting to graft pre-Crisis elements onto the post-Crisis universe. (Ironically, Geoff Johns writing Superman actually messed up the continuity. It was hard to envision the post-Infinite Crisis character as a continuation of the post-Crisis version.)

DiDio sounds like a decent guy and a big comic fan. But he might have been too much of a fan to be an effective leader of the comic company.
wildd0g
Sunday, February 23, 2020 12:29:16 AM
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From what I've been reading, it sounds like if this 5G idea fails then AT&T is going to close up shop on DC Comics.

https://comicbookhype.com/cosmicbook-news/att-closing-dc-comics-if-5g-fails-says-ethan-van-sciver/
monidaw1
Sunday, February 23, 2020 7:22:21 AM
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Currently DC has some moments but nothing sustainable.

People were excited about a Bat wedding just to get it ripped away after a year of hype and anticipation. Now they're even coming back with an out of wedlock pregnant Catwoman/ Batman teamup.

Doomsday was HOT and exciting but never really delivered and the delays in production killed the momentum.

Batman Who Laughs had a good folowing that disappeared the second they changed the name to Batman superman and renumbered it to #1.

Shazam had amazing art, literally some of the best I've ever seen but at a cost of killing story development thru shipping delays.

Freedom Fighters was an interesting read but the ending felt rushed/crammed into a single issue with no real time to enjoy or follow up how things worked out.

The Black Labels were well met early on but they keep making the damn things magazine sized so they take up too much space on the shelf, are impossible to ship in Flat Rate Envelopes with other comics and customers can't store them in the same boxes with their other current size comics. Interest has been dropping back with each new oversized one. This also leads to damage from Diamond shipping them since they will not fit in the slots of the boxes they use so they end up on top bouncing around inside the box.

DCeased was absolutely great!!!! They hit on a method of giving retailers the comic in pdf prior to FOC and we responded by having more copies of #1 ordered(over240,000) than the entire Marvel Zombie 5 issue series production combined. Then they come out with a Free Copy of #1 immediately for Halloween Comicfest before store shelves had sold thru of shelf copies, before the Trade was on the shelf to sell and even before #6 was out. That should have been delayed to be a FCBD issue or at least until next years Halloween Comicfest.

Marvel gives their Preview books away for FREE DC decided they wanted 75 cent, and now have settled on a quarter each.

Marvel buries us in posters to keep the front windows covered, I haven't gotten a DC poster since last Summer.

They went thru a period I thought was in the right direction where they were really cutting back on the qty of comics coming out each month. It seemed to give them more options to have their better talent working on a larger % of the books and stores more reasons to buy increased numbers of each coming out to keep the discount levels intact. It was great while it lasted but now it appears they're back to swamping us with volume again and it appears the volume is in books that have no clear tie in to the main universe.

Justice League was hitting it with what I felt was an attempt to make the league feel introduced and a fixed point with the new Hall of Justice and the explanations of the rooms for each, Wonder Twins as interns, Titans and Younger teams kept on loose leashes and monitored, etc, etc and really loved the return of the Darth Vader Helmet living Legion of Doom but they just had to go ultra cosmic level threat again and take the stories into mind bending universal level dangers that don't really excite or feel relatable to the average reader. This week's street level fight may be the best issue in over a year from the series.

Are we still living with two completely different Harley Quinn's? It really feels like the series Harley is a completely different person than the one in Suicide Squad and occasionally popping up in other series as a guest. Just make it official already and seperate them the way White Knight did by making them two different people.

Naomi was a train wreck. Hype caused an explosion in resale pricing just to have all those promises to finally know her powers and everything explained not delivered causing a huge crash in price. The best they could come up with was a knock off of the Hope story from Marvel. Baby sent off to another dimension/time to be raised safe, big guy chasing her and eventually finding her, noone could have a baby for years until the ONE BIRTH suddenly, blah, blah, blah. It's Hope from the X-men and we still don't know what her powers are!!! Now she's off to Young Justice who seem determined to include every teen in DC now and I'm not sure her bubble floaty/flying punch is her or the suit her parents sent her. Wally West's kids are back so I'm sure we're only a couple issues away from having 3 speesters in Young Justice and no centralized story to follow.

Teen Titans a rare bright spot in the dark has stayed fairly focused on developing Crush since her introduction. Most storys since have revolved around her, her getting her chain, her budding romance/crushes on Djinn, meeting Daddy, and anticipation of an announcement that one of the Harley's is the mommy causing her and Lobo's Little Black Book issue to still command some love on the open market. It's only a matter of time before she gets some use outside of the comic and is a perfect candidate to pop up in ANY of the CW series including Supergirl and Batwoman. I feel like it's only a matter of time.

Super Sons were ruined by aging the Boy of Steel to the Teen of Steel. I really wanted to see that turn into some type of CW series or at least on their streaming service, maybe with Smallville's Loius and Clark as the mom and Dad although the Crisis event just messed up any simple way of that happening while screwing up what we hoped was a happy ever after for them and even the Superman Movie's Superman. One glimpse of Super Preteen tossing a piano at the bad guys, now the whole Daily Bugle staff is dead including mom.

Metal Men seems interesting so far but it's a limited series once again destined to abandon followers by the time we get some to start reading and subscribe.

Heroes in Crisis may have had the worst 2 issue ending of ALL TIME!!!! Even death threats to the writers followed it was so bad. I can't say Flash Forward has done anything to make me forgive them although the gorgous covers to the follow up Harley Poison Ivey series take some of the sting away.

Legion of Superheroes? I have hope but even that can't come out without controversy. They stopped shipment of an issue of Action Comics and Supergirl after already packing some boxes at Diamond. Many of us then got the privelage of paying for two comics we didn't actually get until weeks later. Meanwhile both issues that made it out the door at Diamond the first week hit E-bay sales big in the $70's.

DC had stores that recieved them fill out an affidavit for how many copies they destroyed (some obviously didn't destroy them, just filled out the paperwork and sold them anyway for stupid high money.) Those of us that didn't have our boxes filled before the books were removed from the assembly line didn't get the opportunity to submit an affidavit. Then they decide to reward the people who did fill out affidavits with a FREE variant cover for each comic they claimed to destroy!!! Talk about hitting the lottery. Another $50 E-Bay book at the time. All the rest of us who had to pay for books we didn't get on time, explain to customers and possibly lost sales of those books eventually get one single token copy and apparently the people who got the two issues in question but didn't fill out an affidavit ALSO got 1 copy FREE!!! In the middle of all that they also switch covers on Supergirl from a gorgous cover we overordered since it was so nice to replace it with an okay cover we now have too many of that we don't want and wouldn't have ordered.

I could keep going but DC is a mess.
1. Make less comics of better quality a month and delivered on time!!!!
2. Give us the tools to market your product like posters and catologs!!!
3. Quit renumbering and restarting everything.
4. Occasionally tie something in one way or another to something happening on tv and or the movies if you ever get that mess resolved. You can do 20+ episodes of a tv show in a year but you can't produce 12 comics and cross promote them from the TV show to tie in and direct fans from one format to the other optimizing the sales potential of tie in merchandise, figures, statues, etc...??
5. GIVE US SECOND PRINTINGS OF EARLY ISSUES IN A TIMELY MANNER. How can you expect us to sell through shelf stock without #1's that have sold out and occasionally #2's?




bluedevil2002
Sunday, February 23, 2020 8:28:47 AM
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wildd0g wrote:
From what I've been reading, it sounds like if this 5G idea fails then AT&T is going to close up shop on DC Comics.

https://comicbookhype.com/cosmicbook-news/att-closing-dc-comics-if-5g-fails-says-ethan-van-sciver/


Ethan Van Sciver is a great artist, but a terrible source for information like that. He pretty much blacklisted himself for picking too many fights on the internet.
MoonKnight1
Sunday, February 23, 2020 9:46:37 AM
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bluedevil2002 wrote:
wildd0g wrote:
From what I've been reading, it sounds like if this 5G idea fails then AT&T is going to close up shop on DC Comics.

https://comicbookhype.com/cosmicbook-news/att-closing-dc-comics-if-5g-fails-says-ethan-van-sciver/


Ethan Van Sciver is a great artist, but a terrible source for information like that. He pretty much blacklisted himself for picking too many fights on the internet.

I like how he said that comic books are dead. Way to bite the hand that feeds you.

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SwiftMann
Sunday, February 23, 2020 12:34:41 PM
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wildd0g wrote:
From what I've been reading, it sounds like if this 5G idea fails then AT&T is going to close up shop on DC Comics.

https://comicbookhype.com/cosmicbook-news/att-closing-dc-comics-if-5g-fails-says-ethan-van-sciver/

I'm pretty sure this exact site has been perpetuating this idea for a couple years. And Van Sciver is no kind of source as he's become a weird extremist over the years.
Thundercron
Sunday, February 23, 2020 1:09:36 PM
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SwiftMann wrote:
Thundercron wrote:
Huh. Hadn't heard of this Generation Five thing. Sounds terrible. Looks like he wanted to make the same mistakes Marvel made in the last several years by replacing long-time characters with new versions.

But that's been DC's thing for 60 years.

As for me, I completely bailed on DC 10 years ago with the New 52 and was mostly on the way out for a few years before that. I feel like part of that was Didio's influence on the line.

I have also heard directly from DC employees that, early on at least, he was way too involved with everything to the point he was mucking up story flow for writers.


To me it's a little bit of a different animal than New 52 or other reboots. With those we still had Bruce Wayne as Batman, Clark Kent as Superman, etc. Generation Five seems like a worse progression with totally different people donning the masks.

Someone here said it was teased that Generation Five might be temporary. If everyone was on the same page with that, this might go over better. Back in the nineties when Marvel suspended the Spider-Man books and X-Men books for four months each to replace them with Scarlet Spider and Age of Apocalypse, everyone knew it was a special event that was temporary. It helped everyone relax a bit and just enjoy the cool stories. If it sucked, things would soon be back to normal. If it was awesome, the ideas could always be spun into their own monthly titles later.

Today these types of changes are hyped based on how angry they make fans. I still remember Dan Slott bragging about how angry fans were going to be when they read Amazing #700, and how he might have to go into hiding because of the reaction. Really? That's not how it worked in the old days. Before fans would write letters expressing their dislike for a storyline or creative team, and sometimes (hopefully) Marvel would listen and make changes. Now ticking off fans is worn as a badge of honor by these people (we also see this happening in other media). It just sucks.
SwiftMann
Sunday, February 23, 2020 1:55:05 PM
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Sorry to delete the rest of a well thought out post, just wanted to focus on this and hate super-long reply threads.

Thundercron wrote:
To me it's a little bit of a different animal than New 52 or other reboots. With those we still had Bruce Wayne as Batman, Clark Kent as Superman, etc. Generation Five seems like a worse progression with totally different people donning the masks.

Well, that's what I mean about 60 years, not just 10.

A couple easy, big character examples:

GL: Alan Scott, Hal Jordan, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, Kyle Rayner
WW: Diana, Hippolyta
Flash: Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, Wally West, Bart Allen
Robin: Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Damian Wayne
Batman: Jean Paul Valley, Dick Grayson
Superman: Reign of the Supermen (at the time it was unclear if they would bring back the original)

And there are tons more that have done the same. To me, DC is KNOWN for the legacy character dynamic.
Thundercron
Sunday, February 23, 2020 2:03:29 PM
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SwiftMann wrote:
Sorry to delete the rest of a well thought out post, just wanted to focus on this and hate super-long reply threads.

Thundercron wrote:
To me it's a little bit of a different animal than New 52 or other reboots. With those we still had Bruce Wayne as Batman, Clark Kent as Superman, etc. Generation Five seems like a worse progression with totally different people donning the masks.

Well, that's what I mean about 60 years, not just 10.

A couple easy, big character examples:

GL: Alan Scott, Hal Jordan, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, Kyle Rayner
WW: Diana, Hippolyta
Flash: Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, Wally West, Bart Allen
Robin: Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Damian Wayne
Batman: Jean Paul Valley, Dick Grayson
Superman: Reign of the Supermen (at the time it was unclear if they would bring back the original)

And there are tons more that have done the same. To me, DC is KNOWN for the legacy character dynamic.


Point well taken. I'm admittedly not as well versed in DC lore as I am in Marvel.
bluedevil2002
Sunday, February 23, 2020 3:25:43 PM
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I'd say the big difference is that previous legacy characters weren't an across the board mandate. Green Lantern and Flash in the Silver Age were done because they had been out of the spotlight for at least a decade and were updated for a new generation. Others were done as an extension of stories going on.

It just seems a bit risky to completely change everyone's secret identity at the same time, just for the sake of changing it up.
SwiftMann
Sunday, February 23, 2020 3:45:04 PM
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bluedevil2002 wrote:
I'd say the big difference is that previous legacy characters weren't an across the board mandate. Green Lantern and Flash in the Silver Age were done because they had been out of the spotlight for at least a decade and were updated for a new generation. Others were done as an extension of stories going on.

It just seems a bit risky to completely change everyone's secret identity at the same time, just for the sake of changing it up.

This is totally fair too.

If I remember my history correctly, the JSA was a retcon created to create new characters of mostly unused properties at the dawn of the Silver Age. That was the last largescale wholesale change I can think of. Argument could be made that Superman/Batman/GL in the 90s was sort of similar, but it was one character at a time within the confines of their titles. Still, just a "look at the new guy in the suit" money grab all the same.

Total aside - Fell down the troll hole about this topic at two other sites today. Lots fo bait and I couldn't help but take the hook after years of ignoring it all. Appreciate that this is still a reasonable, if small, crowd.

bluedevil2002
Sunday, February 23, 2020 5:52:29 PM
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SwiftMann wrote:
If I remember my history correctly, the JSA was a retcon created to create new characters of mostly unused properties at the dawn of the Silver Age.


The JSA was introduced in 1940. The only retcon was creating Earth-1 and Earth-2 to explain who these new guys were with the old codenames, and then deciding that there were now two versions of Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman.
SwiftMann
Sunday, February 23, 2020 6:10:50 PM
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Right. Confused Earth 2 with the JSA.
monidaw1
Monday, February 24, 2020 7:01:58 AM
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You think one day Jim Lee is in the toilet with nothing to do for a few minutes and accidently stumbles across this discussion in a Gooogle search and reads any of this? That's the same method I expect CCL becomes aware of things going on from the users point of view. Always hoping they take time to Google and don't just have a stack of old Wizard Magazines in the executive washroom to fill the time.
MoonKnight1
Saturday, February 29, 2020 2:32:00 PM
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When I think Comic Company EiC obviously it is Stan Lee and then everybody else. When Stan was at the helm at Marvel everyone from artists to writers to editors were on the same page (see what I did there Big Grin ) stylistically. There was an obvious direction to the MU that was cohesive and continuous while also allowing for creativity and innovation.

After Stan stepped down it was a bit tumultuous until the back-to-back reigns of Jim Shooter and Tom DeFalco. Both served solid tenures although not totally without controversy. Quesada was OK, I guess. He probably did more for the cinematic universe than the comic one though. New guy Cebulski - not sold on him yet.

When we're talking DC however, Jenette Khan is hands down the best Editor-in-Chief they have ever had.

Her multi decade run had numerous highlights, here are the main ones:

- She talked Warner Publishing out of cancelling the whole thing before it even began.

- Had the name changed from National Periodical Publications to DC Comics.

- Authorized the iconic DC Bullet logo.

- Encouraged creators to bring cohesiveness to the continuity.

- Was able to snag talented individuals away from Marvel

- Initiated the "DC Explosion"

- She was a pioneer of Limited Series which was revolutionary in the business.

- She was a huge proponent of and fought for Creators Rights another thing that helped change the entire business.

- Oversaw the launch of both the Vertigo and Milestone imprints.

- She diversified the majority male staff at DC and made it a point to hire women and minorities.

Looks like it's Jim Lee's turn. Not so sure about this G5 stuff. Have to wait and see.


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Is it worse to be scared than to be bored, that is the question - Gertrude Stein

Check out my eBay store: Hall Liquidations
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