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Judge orders VA gun range business can open.

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bluedevil2002
Saturday, May 16, 2020 4:05:25 PM
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MoonKnight1 wrote:

So a 93 year old guy with a heart condition or liver problems or any other number of health issues contracts the virus and dies. Was it the virus that caused the death or did it just facilitate it? If you have one foot in the grave and the other foot on a banana peel, in this case Covid-19, do you blame the banana peel or say well it was bound to happen sooner or later anyway? Not trying to be callous or anything just trying to use perspective.


I've been trying to come up with an analogy for that, and I think I got one. Imagine a tower built out of playing cards. Yes, a sledgehammer will knock it down, but so will a gentle nudge from your finger.
comicuniversity
Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:52:48 PM
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bluedevil2002 wrote:
Okay...so here's the story: https://www.insidenova.com/sports/prince_william/verdell-robinson-s-family-refuses-to-dwell-on-what-ifs/article_6d8cd976-7112-11ea-9d40-cfb56e327fa3.html

Guy was scheduled to get a stent put in on March 20, but it got cancelled due to covid concerns. He had a heart attack on March 21 and died. Now, he might have died March 21 anyway, or he might have caught the virus while in the hospital and died later. Obviously, we'll never know. But my point is that there is collateral damage going on.



My point is that by using the "I heard a story" approach...whether the individual stories are true or not...what you are doing is casting doubt on the entire empirical scientific evidence.
It's like the plandemic thing. There was SOME stuff in there that WAS true. Of course that stuff was thrown in just so people would believe the complete bull(banned) that surrounded it.

90,000 deaths almost right?
Is it possible they aren't all because of Covid directly? yes.
Is it possible there are actually other deaths that are due to Covid that haven't been connected to Covid? yes.

Of course, we can't possibly know that in any great detail until deeper studies are done after the fact.
So, it behooves us to believe the official number because there isn't another reasonable number to believe.
Thundercron
Saturday, May 16, 2020 7:21:03 PM
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So I had a thought.

For everyone that bangs the drum of minimizing COVID-19 deaths among the elderly or those with pre-existing conditions, think of this. All those businesses that were struggling before the pandemic and are now closing? Don't count. The 16 Nordstrom stores that are closing? JC Penney filing for bankruptcy and closing stores? That's not because of the pandemic, because all these retail chains have been on their last legs for many years.

It's only fair to apply the logic in the business sector as well.
bluedevil2002
Saturday, May 16, 2020 7:35:50 PM
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comicuniversity wrote:
So, it behooves us to believe the official number because there isn't another reasonable number to believe.


By that logic, we should blindly believe all of the numbers that China has put out there. Although the math made it painfully obvious that somebody was wrong with their numbers when the US surpassed China in number of cases.

The overall point is that none of this exists in a vacuum. You can't just cut through all of the "bull pucky" and throw a number out there, especially when there is a really good chance that there's a fair amount of bull pucky making up that number. It doesn't even have to be a political or bureaucratic advantage. To a certain extent, it's built into the medical field. You know those commercials for medications that list the side effects which can include death? Well, to get on that list of side effects, it just has to be anything that happens to someone in the trial group during the trial period. So if one of them is a passenger in a car that gets run over by a mack truck and dies, death is listed as a side effect of the medication, even though it's obvious that the medication had nothing to do with the person's actual cause of death.
comicuniversity
Saturday, May 16, 2020 8:50:36 PM
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bluedevil2002 wrote:
comicuniversity wrote:
So, it behooves us to believe the official number because there isn't another reasonable number to believe.


By that logic, we should blindly believe all of the numbers that China has put out there. Although the math made it painfully obvious that somebody was wrong with their numbers when the US surpassed China in number of cases.

The overall point is that none of this exists in a vacuum. You can't just cut through all of the "bull pucky" and throw a number out there, especially when there is a really good chance that there's a fair amount of bull pucky making up that number. It doesn't even have to be a political or bureaucratic advantage. To a certain extent, it's built into the medical field. You know those commercials for medications that list the side effects which can include death? Well, to get on that list of side effects, it just has to be anything that happens to someone in the trial group during the trial period. So if one of them is a passenger in a car that gets run over by a mack truck and dies, death is listed as a side effect of the medication, even though it's obvious that the medication had nothing to do with the person's actual cause of death.


Im sorry. Im not making myself clear. I know it's hard for me when typing on a message board.

I'm not suggesting accepting anything blindly.

I'm stating that there are lots of people saying bull crap that isn't true. There are lots of different death toll numbers out there.

Im saying that believing any of them not put together by the leading health authorities in this matter is stupid because then you're just arbitrarily choosing to believe something that has no backing and won't ever change their reporting with new information.

The leading health authorities. The "official " number is coming from people with the most information. Also those are the only people who will admit they are wrong and change their number with new information.

Like i said, the official number from leading health authorities that is out there is the only REASONABLE one to go with. Even though it mighy not be dead on.
bluedevil2002
Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:21:38 PM
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Here's the thing. I'm not denying that X number of people died over a certain period of time. (The X is because the number is obviously changing each day.)

But, I'm just trying to figure out how that number fits into the bigger picture before generating any sort of outrage. How many people die on average in a given month? How many people died of other causes during the same time? etc, etc.
comicuniversity
Saturday, May 16, 2020 9:29:05 PM
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bluedevil2002 wrote:
Here's the thing. I'm not denying that X number of people died over a certain period of time. (The X is because the number is obviously changing each day.)

But, I'm just trying to figure out how that number fits into the bigger picture before generating any sort of outrage. How many people die on average in a given month? How many people died of other causes during the same time? etc, etc.



Those are good questions.

I guess another good question is how many deaths are avoidable....like totally, quantifiably avoidable.
Another good question is what sacrifice is too great to avoid those deaths?

comicuniversity
Saturday, May 16, 2020 10:35:47 PM
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Thundercron wrote:
So I had a thought.

For everyone that bangs the drum of minimizing COVID-19 deaths among the elderly or those with pre-existing conditions, think of this. All those businesses that were struggling before the pandemic and are now closing? Don't count. The 16 Nordstrom stores that are closing? JC Penney filing for bankruptcy and closing stores? That's not because of the pandemic, because all these retail chains have been on their last legs for many years.

It's only fair to apply the logic in the business sector as well.


Great point.

Also, lets be real. Im only talking about corporations here....we just ended an unprecedented period of economic growth. If you are a large corporation and two months of hardship happen after the economy we have been enjoying and you don't have reserves on hand to deal with IT....EVERYBODY needs to be fired and, more than that, maybe some of these executives should be legally liable for the financial losses of some of their employees due to their lack of preparedness.
Thundercron
Saturday, May 16, 2020 10:44:58 PM
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comicuniversity wrote:
Thundercron wrote:
So I had a thought.

For everyone that bangs the drum of minimizing COVID-19 deaths among the elderly or those with pre-existing conditions, think of this. All those businesses that were struggling before the pandemic and are now closing? Don't count. The 16 Nordstrom stores that are closing? JC Penney filing for bankruptcy and closing stores? That's not because of the pandemic, because all these retail chains have been on their last legs for many years.

It's only fair to apply the logic in the business sector as well.


Great point.

Also, lets be real. Im only talking about corporations here....we just ended an unprecedented period of economic growth. If you are a large corporation and two months of hardship happen after the economy we have been enjoying and you don't have reserves on hand to deal with IT....EVERYBODY needs to be fired and, more than that, maybe some of these executives should be legally liable for the financial losses of some of their employees due to their lack of preparedness.


Agree 100%.
4saken1
Sunday, May 17, 2020 12:15:45 PM
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monidaw1 wrote:
I read somewhere else today about some pandemic that hit from 68-70 that killed about 100,000 in the US. I never heard of that one either but there was a nice picture of the crowds at Woodstock right in the middle of it. It appears no politicians fighting over it and no media fear hype let it slide right out of public awareness.


Yes. It killed approximately 100,000 over a 2 year period. COVID-19 has killed nearly that many in the last 2 months. That is with shelter in place orders in effect.

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4saken1
Sunday, May 17, 2020 12:37:34 PM
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comicuniversity wrote:
Right now, the collected data has placed the death toll at a certain number. As we know with science, new data sometimes changes things. When/if new data changes the covid-19 death toll then we deal with that number. We don't use that number to pound the experts.
That's the thing about conspiracy theorists. They NEVER change their tune and never seem to catch any heat when they are wrong.
Scientists (at least good ones) actually admit that new data changes their theories all the time. It's why they can be trusted. Instead of pounding them when it turns out they were wrong, we should praise them for the openness.


Just deciding that you don't believe something because you "heard" something takes you much further from the truth than just believing the reported numbers (even if they end up being wrong).

Remember, even the death toll during 9/11 changed multiple times as more data came in. However, doubting those numbers didn't change the seriousness of the event.



my 2 cents.


Funny thing is, when those on the right were prematurely posting those memes about a month and a half ago which states numbers like 'Only 1,400 have died from COVID-19, but 59,000 die from the flu every year', they absolutely believe the number of flu deaths because it was helping to 'make' their erroneous point. I don't recall any of them going "how many of those 59,000 actually died from the flu, though". Statistics are only real when it advances their argument.
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