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Poll Question: Direct/Newsstand Editions variants per CCL?
Choice Votes Statistics
Yes, Directs and Newsstands are variants. Period, 8 10%
No, Directs and Newsstands are not variants. 52 70%
Maybe, but more discussion needs to happen. 14 18%

DIRECT EDITION vs NEWSSTAND EDITION POLL Options
The_Valiant_One
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 12:10:54 PM

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I have been asked to set up a poll on Direct Editions vs Newsstand Editions being added to the CCLdb as variants.

THE LARGE QUESTION: Should Comic Collector Live consider ALL Direct and Newsstand Editions variants of each other and add such into the CCLdb?

THE SHORT ANSWERS: Strong yes, Strong no, and Maybe.

CCL's current guidelines on variants are as follows:

CCL doesn't consider a newsstand/direct edition variations of each other if there is no change in price.

CCL WILL consider a newsstand/direct a variant if there is a secondary market reason for the variation, such as a significant value.

Also, CCL's Guidelines are not RULES. They can be adjusted through discussion and communication with CCL and the approvers.
SwiftMann
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 12:22:50 PM

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I voted against because I don't think CCL should have directs vs newsstands as variants right now. One day, yeah, maybe. It'd be kind of cool.

But, we've still got a lot of growing to do and a lot gaps to fill that are bigger priorities and the software would need to evolve to better handle so many variants (the ability to hide variants).

And even then it's just a "maybe" one day from me because if it does ever happen, that's a serious burden to the sellers. And if the sellers aren't on board with changing their inventory, what's the point?

In the meantime, there is a way for everyone to at least note you have a newsstand version. I use it all the time. In the software you can leave a market note that you have the Newsstand UPC.

"Words have meaning." - my wife
Jim
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 12:23:38 PM

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Thanks for posting this Steve. I voted for "Maybe, but more discussion needs to happen" because straight up adding them as a variant without changes to the software is not the best approach. However, I do feel they need to be accounted for in some fashion (which is where the discussion needs to be). Happy

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The_Valiant_One
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 12:26:56 PM

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No worries and glad I could help. My hope is this poll will take some of the feeling we're being all high n' mighty about the system and let the community's voice be heard...whether it's for or against.

As Joe is fond of saying, "We're open".
IcyNova
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 1:04:50 PM
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I think everyone knows where I stand. Winking If it looks like a variant, then it is a variant.

Yes in most cases, newsstand editions and direct editions are interchangeable. Some collectors care about that difference, and some do not. However, the fact that there IS a difference is kinda the point. If there is a difference, then there is a difference.

My opinion is that comic book buyers should decide if there is a value difference between two given comics, not CCL approvers, and not CCL sellers. We know there is sometimes a significant difference.

I say, give the buyer the option to purchase any variant they want. The invisible hand of basic economics will have the freedom to do its thing.

Secondly, I say, give the collector the ability to document whichever variant they have. Personal/Market notes in a given item are for things unique to that item. If it has a signature, or a notable flaw, that makes that comic book unique, then put in a market note. There is a large body of Newsstand issues out there, and a large body of Direct market issues out there. This is not an attribute unique to a given item. It looks like a variant, it smells like a variant, it even tastes like a variant. lol. (/sputters out some acrid pulp...)

My final point is that a change like this only gets harder as time goes on. It would have been easy to do at the beginning, harder now, and even harder in the future as more and more issues get cataloged.

Um, and thanks for giving us an opportunity to vote. I kinda wonder though, did all users get a PM to cast a vote? Or just those who posted on the thread? We want to make sure we get a good cross-section of CCL subscribers, as any surveyor can tell you.
Jim
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 1:11:02 PM

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IcyNova wrote:
Um, and thanks for giving us an opportunity to vote. I kinda wonder though, did all users get a PM to cast a vote? Or just those who posted on the thread? We want to make sure we get a good cross-section of CCL subscribers, as any surveyor can tell you.


I PM'd several folks that I thought might have stopped following the thread or might not have seen it, as well as several on the thread itself. CuriousGoodsNComics, HeroComics and NinjaPirateGear were among a few.

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SwiftMann
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 1:29:25 PM

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IcyNova wrote:
My final point is that a change like this only gets harder as time goes on. It would have been easy to do at the beginning, harder now, and even harder in the future as more and more issues get cataloged.

I totally disagree with this. The vast majority (I'd guess 95%) of newsstand UPC comics are from the 80s and 90s. That's when most grocery and convenience stores had spinner racks and the direct comic book shop was moving from novelty to every other block. In today's market, most people buy from the comic shop and there's only a small handful of issues at a few book stores. The overall amount of newsstand UPCs isn't going to grow significantly (in the sense that CCL users will have copies in-hand to add) in the next few months or years from where it stands right now.

But, more importantly, as time goes on, more listings that are currently in the database will be more complete (credits, characters, etc). To create a variant listing, one just needs to click the Add Variant button and provide a cover image. If the "A" listing is complete, the new "B" listing is too. If the "A" listing is only partially complete or empty, the "B" listing is too, meaning someone now has to do twice the data entry to fill these out. You may want to argue that the person submitting the variant will just fill out the "A" listing before submitting the variant. From experience, I can tell you 99.5% won't.

There may be plenty of reasons to want newsstand UPC covers in the database as variants, but getting harder to do as time goes on simply isn't one of them. In fact, without hefty software and website changes first it will be much more time and labor intensive now than in the future.

"Words have meaning." - my wife
padreglcc
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 2:27:26 PM

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IcyNova wrote:
Secondly, I say, give the collector the ability to document whichever variant they have. Personal/Market notes in a given item are for things unique to that item. If it has a signature, or a notable flaw, that makes that comic book unique, then put in a market note. There is a large body of Newsstand issues out there, and a large body of Direct market issues out there. This is not an attribute unique to a given item.

I disagree with the thought that the notes section are not for these kind of notations. I use them for that specific reason (speaking purely as a collector, not a seller since I don't have a store). Shoot, I don't even have to go into the Market Notes if I don't want to. I can use the sidebar on the right side of the screen to make the notation in the "main" section below the Variant and Printing notations.

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HeroComics
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 3:23:23 PM

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I voted Maybe, because of the workload, and changes have to be made to modify the software to accomadate FIRST.

Maybe we could just allow the variants from a specific period of time...

like 1976-1983? good start, and add the rest when the software is more built out, and in meanwhile, people that want it can amass the scans they will need.

Carry on...
The_Valiant_One
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 4:50:50 PM

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IcyNova wrote:
I think everyone knows where I stand. Winking If it looks like a variant, then it is a variant.

Yes in most cases, newsstand editions and direct editions are interchangeable. Some collectors care about that difference, and some do not. However, the fact that there IS a difference is kinda the point. If there is a difference, then there is a difference.

My opinion is that comic book buyers should decide if there is a value difference between two given comics, not CCL approvers, and not CCL sellers. We know there is sometimes a significant difference.

I say, give the buyer the option to purchase any variant they want. The invisible hand of basic economics will have the freedom to do its thing.

Secondly, I say, give the collector the ability to document whichever variant they have. Personal/Market notes in a given item are for things unique to that item. If it has a signature, or a notable flaw, that makes that comic book unique, then put in a market note. There is a large body of Newsstand issues out there, and a large body of Direct market issues out there. This is not an attribute unique to a given item. It looks like a variant, it smells like a variant, it even tastes like a variant. lol. (/sputters out some acrid pulp...)

My final point is that a change like this only gets harder as time goes on. It would have been easy to do at the beginning, harder now, and even harder in the future as more and more issues get cataloged.

Um, and thanks for giving us an opportunity to vote. I kinda wonder though, did all users get a PM to cast a vote? Or just those who posted on the thread? We want to make sure we get a good cross-section of CCL subscribers, as any surveyor can tell you.


The poll is open ended and will continue so all registered members can vote and have their say. :)

CuriousGoodsNComics
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 5:06:38 PM

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my vote
Maybe, but more discussion needs to happen.

Im not dealing with a newsstand distributor at the moment, but i want to. I just haven't had a good opportunity to find one and talk with them yet, but im always on the look out. The reason is this. I remember a while back in 2006 maybe 2007 there was a misprint Captain America(vol 5) that was a newsstand issue. I found out a week later because when I got my copies from diamond they were the "corrected" copies. I was expecting error covers/misprints but I got the good ones. Which told me that the misprint editions were released at least a week early. So I went directly to Randall's that was about 1.5 hours away from where I am and picked up all the misprints that were still left on the rack. The highest grade may have been vf+ you know they get bent in those racks, but if I had not been following the current events I would have not know there were misprints on that certain issue at all. I'm leaning toward having a complete database. I'm not sure that issue is even in the database as a newsstand variant or if the database even reflects a misprint on that newsstand variant which would mean there would be a #-a,#-b,#-c 3 covers for that issue. We may consider newsstand "variants" because I'm sure there are a ton more issues we have no clue on how many covers and if there were any misprints or variations. I never have a problem knowing any variations when I get books from diamond. Its part of what we do as comic specialty shops so a majority of currents revolve around us and we care about all the details. Do you think that the purchaser for Randall's really cares about a discrepancy in some comics. At the end of the month the issues not sold get strip covers and returns for credit. Their not worried about collected value on books. They have no idea what there doing when they do that it really makes those few newsstand issues floating around to really increase in value. So I think we should treat newsstand issues as variants, but we as retailers really need to look at getting newsstand issues just for cataloging purposes. I have no idea how many newsstand issues came out last week? Can somebody here get me a list of all newsstand issues coming out this month really? Having access to the newsstand market itself is a must. The newsstand market maybe a variant itself lol. And how are we suppose to know collected value on newsstand issues when we have incomplete details and not really know whats going on over there. We should really do something about this. At least start implemented the issues more in the database so we kinda know what to look for to start adding those issues to our stores and so we can be on the look out to adding future issues to the database. So we are more complete here on ccl and it's potential growth and what we stand for because its really important what we do.
The_Valiant_One
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 5:27:57 PM

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IcyNova wrote:
I think everyone knows where I stand. Winking If it looks like a variant, then it is a variant.

Yes in most cases, newsstand editions and direct editions are interchangeable. Some collectors care about that difference, and some do not. However, the fact that there IS a difference is kinda the point. If there is a difference, then there is a difference.


I really like this topic, so I'll discuss my position on the idea.

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you that there IS a difference, and thus a variation. If you want me to say it's a variant...ok. :) We just haven't been on board with the idea of cataloguing what are, in essence, the same book except for the UPC code and a subtle change in logo...unless there's a secondary market difference.

IcyNova wrote:
My opinion is that comic book buyers should decide if there is a value difference between two given comics, not CCL approvers, and not CCL sellers. We know there is sometimes a significant difference.


Most decisions have been made regarding CCL internally, but we do let our approvers and in ALOT of cases, our membership guide us and steer us as much as possible. But, approvers and sellers are also comic buyers, too. We're acknowledging a secondary market difference in Directs/Newsstands that is completely in line with industry. The Overstreet would be Exhibit A. Give me a larger community in favor of this change, and we'll definately consider it..hence the vote. I think the impression you may be perceiving is we don't care what your opinion on this one, and that's not true. There's just been...few people ask for this consideration.


IcyNova wrote:
I say, give the buyer the option to purchase any variant they want. The invisible hand of basic economics will have the freedom to do its thing.



Again, boiling down on what we as a community consider a variant...which is open to individual perception. On the flip side, creating an environment of direct/newwstand variants could very well backfire and turn new members off because they don't subscribe to the "looks like a variant" philosophy. That's not meant to come out mean, but from my end of the table, it can happen.


IcyNova wrote:
Secondly, I say, give the collector the ability to document whichever variant they have. Personal/Market notes in a given item are for things unique to that item. If it has a signature, or a notable flaw, that makes that comic book unique, then put in a market note. There is a large body of Newsstand issues out there, and a large body of Direct market issues out there. This is not an attribute unique to a given item. It looks like a variant, it smells like a variant, it even tastes like a variant. lol. (/sputters out some acrid pulp...)



Exactly. Personal/Market Notes are completely up to the individual to use as they will. Signatures, flaws, and for now, Direct vs Newsstand if that's important to them.


IcyNova wrote:
My final point is that a change like this only gets harder as time goes on. It would have been easy to do at the beginning, harder now, and even harder in the future as more and more issues get cataloged.



I disagree. I would argue the majority of these happened within a 20-year period, almost drying out completely 5-7 years ago. The BIGGEST challenges will be finding collectors who have Direct and Newsstand edition covers to scan and add, changing the data structure to incorporate them as uniformly as possible AND marketing the change as a positive one. For collectors who collect BOTH, the software will be a dream. To those who don't care about the difference, noone will EVER have a completist collection of titles from this period of discussion.

IcyNova wrote:
Um, and thanks for giving us an opportunity to vote. I kinda wonder though, did all users get a PM to cast a vote? Or just those who posted on the thread? We want to make sure we get a good cross-section of CCL subscribers, as any surveyor can tell you.



Again, the vote is completely open to all registered members, not just subscribers only. I encourage and welcome all to vote and voice an opinion. If ANYTHING, it shows that we all agree that CCL can and is being considered a collector's method of choice and garners vocal opinion. Applause
fenix1977
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 5:43:30 PM

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I voted no..only because there are enough Variants flying around as it is..maybe some day but right now until this variant craze slows down and it goes back to being the rare thing instead of the standard..



Mad Bloggings

meangreenninjame
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:08:37 PM

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I went with Maybe on this and here is my reasoning. There is an obvious difference between the two covers, (after all that's the only way we could be having this discussion) and I do know that there are some collector's that really do care about this. But I think the sheer amount of extra work and confusion over which version of a book you may be buying isn't worth the headache. Maybe something could be mentioned in the "Market Notes" section of the issue you are selling? I think if we just set up a basic understanding that some people may care, and you may boost your sells my listing it in some fashion, we would get the same result.

Then again, I'm speaking from the viewpoint of a collector who really couldn't care less as long as the book is in decent shape.Big Grin



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Xylob
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:00:11 PM

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meangreenninjame wrote:
Then again, I'm speaking from the viewpoint of a collector who really couldn't care less as long as the book is in decent shape.Big Grin
and I would say that based on the current results you are part of a clear and overwhelming majority of those subscribers who have cast their vote.

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The_Valiant_One
Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:43:06 PM

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Xylob wrote:
meangreenninjame wrote:
Then again, I'm speaking from the viewpoint of a collector who really couldn't care less as long as the book is in decent shape.Big Grin
and I would say that based on the current results you are part of a clear and overwhelming majority of those subscribers who have cast their vote.


I love Democracy :)
HeroComics
Posted: Saturday, August 21, 2010 9:15:26 AM

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CuriousGoodsNComics wrote:
my vote
Maybe, but more discussion needs to happen.

Im not dealing with a newsstand distributor at the moment, but i want to. I just haven't had a good opportunity to find one and talk with them yet, but im always on the look out. The reason is this. I remember a while back in 2006 maybe 2007 there was a misprint Captain America(vol 5) that was a newsstand issue. I found out a week later because when I got my copies from diamond they were the "corrected" copies. I was expecting error covers/misprints but I got the good ones. Which told me that the misprint editions were released at least a week early. So I went directly to Randall's that was about 1.5 hours away from where I am and picked up all the misprints that were still left on the rack. The highest grade may have been vf+ you know they get bent in those racks, but if I had not been following the current events I would have not know there were misprints on that certain issue at all. I'm leaning toward having a complete database. I'm not sure that issue is even in the database as a newsstand variant or if the database even reflects a misprint on that newsstand variant which would mean there would be a #-a,#-b,#-c 3 covers for that issue. We may consider newsstand "variants" because I'm sure there are a ton more issues we have no clue on how many covers and if there were any misprints or variations. I never have a problem knowing any variations when I get books from diamond. Its part of what we do as comic specialty shops so a majority of currents revolve around us and we care about all the details. Do you think that the purchaser for Randall's really cares about a discrepancy in some comics. At the end of the month the issues not sold get strip covers and returns for credit. Their not worried about collected value on books. They have no idea what there doing when they do that it really makes those few newsstand issues floating around to really increase in value. So I think we should treat newsstand issues as variants, but we as retailers really need to look at getting newsstand issues just for cataloging purposes. I have no idea how many newsstand issues came out last week? Can somebody here get me a list of all newsstand issues coming out this month really? Having access to the newsstand market itself is a must. The newsstand market maybe a variant itself lol. And how are we suppose to know collected value on newsstand issues when we have incomplete details and not really know whats going on over there. We should really do something about this. At least start implemented the issues more in the database so we kinda know what to look for to start adding those issues to our stores and so we can be on the look out to adding future issues to the database. So we are more complete here on ccl and it's potential growth and what we stand for because its really important what we do.


Interesting... we REALLY should define what a VARIANT is.
Xylob
Posted: Saturday, August 21, 2010 9:50:41 AM

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The_Valiant_One wrote:
I love Democracy :)
Tongue
smart ass

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Mookie89
Posted: Saturday, August 21, 2010 10:45:08 AM

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I voted no, though my motivation wasn't necessarily because of my belief in whether or not Direct or Newsstand are variants. It has more to do with the fact that I see this is as a very low-value feature that serves a niche collector, and the resources to solve the problem could be put to much better use.



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Xylob
Posted: Saturday, August 21, 2010 11:11:25 AM

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Mookie89 wrote:
I voted no, though my motivation wasn't necessarily because of my belief in whether or not Direct or Newsstand are variants. It has more to do with the fact that I see this is as a very low-value feature that serves a niche collector, and the resources to solve the problem could be put to much better use.
Applause Applause Applause
an absolute need? no...
a nice-to-have dream sheet item? absolutely.

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