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Distinguishing newsstand from direct sales comics Options
yourplace2
Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:22:26 AM

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scotteaves wrote:
yourplace2 wrote:
SwiftMann wrote:
yourplace2 wrote:
if CCL added NEWSTANDS and also Signed Comic as separate items, then one could search for those excusively (saving time).

While I can appreciate the newsstand dicussion, there's no way randomly signed comics could or should be added. It would be like the Wild West, a mess of a database and fraud. And (I'm speaking for myself here not CCL) if a store doesn't see that this is the wrong place for them. CCL is a place for real coolectors, buyers and sellers. Not stores looking for a venue to hock overpriced baloney and take advatage of a complete lack of controls.


Actually, if signed comics were added individually, it would be very easy to distinguish REAL signatures and items from FAKE. There are plenty of signed comics with genuine certificates of authenticity to compare to. Besides, you would not have to list every separate comic with a signature, just one more like a variant cover. Then if more than one collector or seller has one, or if a single person had several of the same item all signed, they could add it to the listing. Then users could easily compare signed comics with signed comics. BUt as it is now, signed comics, newsstand comics, all are left without separatin from DIRECT EDITION. It is the same situation that originally brought out listing separate VARIANT covers.

Take a look as ASPEN STORE. Many titles are offered for purchase with or without signature. Imagine if ASPEN did not separate them, and it was luck of the draw that you would get a signed comic or UNSIGNED one.


1) ASPEN is essentially authenticating those signed issues. There is no one at CCL to authenticate a random issue signed at a convention. Apples and oranges.

2) Just because a signature LOOKS the same as a signature on a COA'd signed issue does NOT mean it's a real signature. That's a bad assumption. Send me a few issues and I'll get them signed by Stan Lee for you. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Whistle


I have not yet experienced a FRAUD signature, but never looked for it. And I won't. And I also won't take your implication that ALL UN-AUTHENTICATED Signatures are faked.

Some people collect comics with just signatures, some people don't want them, and think it actually de-values the comic (read a news article about that) but like this is the nature of COLLECTING ANYTHING, everyone has an opinion. When those opinions match, then you have an agreement.

BUT, CCL currently has no way of sorting out SIGNED COMICS from unsigned. Maybe someday they will, I'd like to see that. Maybe this is only MY OPINION...LOL.

The REALITY IS, there are tons of comics with signatures that ARE VERY REAL COLLECTIBLES! You would not have these long lines of fans at the conventions getting their books signed would we..HMMM??

Oh, but those are all fakes aren't they. LOLWall

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The_Valiant_One
Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 10:46:16 AM

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yourplace2 wrote:
scotteaves wrote:
yourplace2 wrote:
SwiftMann wrote:
yourplace2 wrote:
if CCL added NEWSTANDS and also Signed Comic as separate items, then one could search for those excusively (saving time).

While I can appreciate the newsstand dicussion, there's no way randomly signed comics could or should be added. It would be like the Wild West, a mess of a database and fraud. And (I'm speaking for myself here not CCL) if a store doesn't see that this is the wrong place for them. CCL is a place for real coolectors, buyers and sellers. Not stores looking for a venue to hock overpriced baloney and take advatage of a complete lack of controls.


Actually, if signed comics were added individually, it would be very easy to distinguish REAL signatures and items from FAKE. There are plenty of signed comics with genuine certificates of authenticity to compare to. Besides, you would not have to list every separate comic with a signature, just one more like a variant cover. Then if more than one collector or seller has one, or if a single person had several of the same item all signed, they could add it to the listing. Then users could easily compare signed comics with signed comics. BUt as it is now, signed comics, newsstand comics, all are left without separatin from DIRECT EDITION. It is the same situation that originally brought out listing separate VARIANT covers.

Take a look as ASPEN STORE. Many titles are offered for purchase with or without signature. Imagine if ASPEN did not separate them, and it was luck of the draw that you would get a signed comic or UNSIGNED one.


1) ASPEN is essentially authenticating those signed issues. There is no one at CCL to authenticate a random issue signed at a convention. Apples and oranges.

2) Just because a signature LOOKS the same as a signature on a COA'd signed issue does NOT mean it's a real signature. That's a bad assumption. Send me a few issues and I'll get them signed by Stan Lee for you. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Whistle


I have not yet experienced a FRAUD signature, but never looked for it. And I won't. And I also won't take your implication that ALL UN-AUTHENTICATED Signatures are faked.

Some people collect comics with just signatures, some people don't want them, and think it actually de-values the comic (read a news article about that) but like this is the nature of COLLECTING ANYTHING, everyone has an opinion. When those opinions match, then you have an agreement.

BUT, CCL currently has no way of sorting out SIGNED COMICS from unsigned. Maybe someday they will, I'd like to see that. Maybe this is only MY OPINION...LOL.

The REALITY IS, there are tons of comics with signatures that ARE VERY REAL COLLECTIBLES! You would not have these long lines of fans at the conventions getting their books signed would we..HMMM??

Oh, but those are all fakes aren't they. LOLWall


Of course they're not fakes. lol But they aren't condusive to a COLLECTING website and software. Lookit. If I go to a convention and get STAN LEE to sign a copy of BATMAN #608...sure, I created a collectible. I paid good money to get the signature. I stood in line to get the signature.

The problem is...not everyone has a Batman #608 signed by Stan Lee. In fact, you would probably be one of a handful on the whole planet that might. Noone's debating the signature is a fraud just because it's not in the CCLdb. What we're saying is anyone could add any book signed by anyone to the CCLdb and it would come out looking like an absolute mess. By the way. I DO NOT have a BATMAN #608 signed by Stan Lee. However, I do have a CABLE #1 signed by Stan Lee.

Why??? I'll have to get back with you on that one...

SwiftMann
Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 12:40:03 PM

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The_Valiant_One wrote:
What we're saying is anyone could add any book signed by anyone to the CCLdb and it would come out looking like an absolute mess.

Exactly. This isn't eBay where everyone gets a unique entry for auction. It's a database for collectors, buyers AND sellers. It has to work for all three, not just the sellers.

Quote:
By the way. I DO NOT have a BATMAN #608 signed by Stan Lee.

I have a friend who has a copy of Case Files: Sam and Twitch #17 signed by me, since I was the only letter in the letters page. I really don't think that needs to be added. Or does it...


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scotteaves
Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 2:21:34 PM

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yourplace2 wrote:
scotteaves wrote:

1) ASPEN is essentially authenticating those signed issues. There is no one at CCL to authenticate a random issue signed at a convention. Apples and oranges.

2) Just because a signature LOOKS the same as a signature on a COA'd signed issue does NOT mean it's a real signature. That's a bad assumption. Send me a few issues and I'll get them signed by Stan Lee for you. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Whistle


I have not yet experienced a FRAUD signature, but never looked for it. And I won't. And I also won't take your implication that ALL UN-AUTHENTICATED Signatures are faked.

Some people collect comics with just signatures, some people don't want them, and think it actually de-values the comic (read a news article about that) but like this is the nature of COLLECTING ANYTHING, everyone has an opinion. When those opinions match, then you have an agreement.

BUT, CCL currently has no way of sorting out SIGNED COMICS from unsigned. Maybe someday they will, I'd like to see that. Maybe this is only MY OPINION...LOL.

The REALITY IS, there are tons of comics with signatures that ARE VERY REAL COLLECTIBLES! You would not have these long lines of fans at the conventions getting their books signed would we..HMMM??

Oh, but those are all fakes aren't they. LOLWall


Never implied or stated that ALL Un-authenticated signatures are fakes. That's just how you chose to twist and interpret my statement. All I said is that NOT all Un-authenticated signatures are real. Big, big, big difference there.

I've got signed issues in my collection that don't have COA's and are NOT in the CCL db because there is no authentication. Take a look at how CGC handles signatures - they won't authenticate the signature unless their rep is there for the signing. It's not uncommon for people to question the authenticity of something without a COA.

CCL DOES have a checkbox and textbox in the software for Signed issues. And I'll agree that it would be great if that data could be passed through when issues are listed for sale.

yourplace2
Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:00:57 PM

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The_Valiant_One wrote:
yourplace2 wrote:
scotteaves wrote:
yourplace2 wrote:
SwiftMann wrote:
yourplace2 wrote:
if CCL added NEWSTANDS and also Signed Comic as separate items, then one could search for those excusively (saving time).

While I can appreciate the newsstand dicussion, there's no way randomly signed comics could or should be added. It would be like the Wild West, a mess of a database and fraud. And (I'm speaking for myself here not CCL) if a store doesn't see that this is the wrong place for them. CCL is a place for real coolectors, buyers and sellers. Not stores looking for a venue to hock overpriced baloney and take advatage of a complete lack of controls.


Actually, if signed comics were added individually, it would be very easy to distinguish REAL signatures and items from FAKE. There are plenty of signed comics with genuine certificates of authenticity to compare to. Besides, you would not have to list every separate comic with a signature, just one more like a variant cover. Then if more than one collector or seller has one, or if a single person had several of the same item all signed, they could add it to the listing. Then users could easily compare signed comics with signed comics. BUt as it is now, signed comics, newsstand comics, all are left without separatin from DIRECT EDITION. It is the same situation that originally brought out listing separate VARIANT covers.

Take a look as ASPEN STORE. Many titles are offered for purchase with or without signature. Imagine if ASPEN did not separate them, and it was luck of the draw that you would get a signed comic or UNSIGNED one.


1) ASPEN is essentially authenticating those signed issues. There is no one at CCL to authenticate a random issue signed at a convention. Apples and oranges.

2) Just because a signature LOOKS the same as a signature on a COA'd signed issue does NOT mean it's a real signature. That's a bad assumption. Send me a few issues and I'll get them signed by Stan Lee for you. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Whistle


I have not yet experienced a FRAUD signature, but never looked for it. And I won't. And I also won't take your implication that ALL UN-AUTHENTICATED Signatures are faked.

Some people collect comics with just signatures, some people don't want them, and think it actually de-values the comic (read a news article about that) but like this is the nature of COLLECTING ANYTHING, everyone has an opinion. When those opinions match, then you have an agreement.

BUT, CCL currently has no way of sorting out SIGNED COMICS from unsigned. Maybe someday they will, I'd like to see that. Maybe this is only MY OPINION...LOL.

The REALITY IS, there are tons of comics with signatures that ARE VERY REAL COLLECTIBLES! You would not have these long lines of fans at the conventions getting their books signed would we..HMMM??

Oh, but those are all fakes aren't they. LOLWall


Of course they're not fakes. lol But they aren't condusive to a COLLECTING website and software. Lookit. If I go to a convention and get STAN LEE to sign a copy of BATMAN #608...sure, I created a collectible. I paid good money to get the signature. I stood in line to get the signature.

The problem is...not everyone has a Batman #608 signed by Stan Lee. In fact, you would probably be one of a handful on the whole planet that might. Noone's debating the signature is a fraud just because it's not in the CCLdb. What we're saying is anyone could add any book signed by anyone to the CCLdb and it would come out looking like an absolute mess. By the way. I DO NOT have a BATMAN #608 signed by Stan Lee. However, I do have a CABLE #1 signed by Stan Lee.

Why??? I'll have to get back with you on that one...


OK, but alot of people have a BATMAN 608, and currently there is no way quickly see if any of the 14 sellers has a signed one without guessing and going through each store. That's my point about it. I do not know what the criteria you use is for the so called DATABASE, but there is a market for signed books. I understand that you do not want them to add the database as a separate item, but you need to create a way to search for them. The easist way would be ass them as a separate item that ALL SELLERS/COLLECTORS with a signed one places signed copies..know what I mean?

What is this CHECKED FOR SIGNED the poster after you mentioned. Is that the answer? Can you search for them that way?

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scotteaves
Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:10:05 PM

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yourplace2 wrote:

What is this CHECKED FOR SIGNED the poster after you mentioned. Is that the answer? Can you search for them that way?


That is a selection in the Software on the specific issue. Right click on the issue in your collection, Select Edit, look on the tabs. Can't remember which tab it is but you'll see a check box for Signed and then a text box to list who signed it.

I don't think that data is transferred up when listing an issue for sale. There's no way to search for it on the website that I've found.

The criteria used for allowing signed issues into the "so-called DATABASE" can be found in the Change Request Guidelines under "Signed/Remarked Variants" which is in two locations - one about halfway down the page (highlighted in yellow) and very near the end of the Guidelines just above the red section titled "Quick Tips for New Submitters."

SwiftMann
Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:16:05 PM

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yourplace2 wrote:
OK, but alot of people have a BATMAN 608, and currently there is no way quickly see if any of the 14 sellers has a signed one without guessing and going through each store. That's my point about it. I do not know what the criteria you use is for the so called DATABASE, but there is a market for signed books. I understand that you do not want them to add the database as a separate item, but you need to create a way to search for them. The easist way would be ass them as a separate item that ALL SELLERS/COLLECTORS with a signed one places signed copies..know what I mean?

What is this CHECKED FOR SIGNED the poster after you mentioned. Is that the answer? Can you search for them that way?


1) I think, like the newsstand collectors, you are talking about an extremely small number of people that "collect" randomly signed books. That is, books not authenticated by Dynamic Forces or another major vendor which ARE allowed in the database as variants. Frankly, I'd be surprised to learn about any collector that is actively searching for randomly signed comics.

2) When you double click on an item in your collection, the pop up has market notes on the right and signatures on the left. You click the signed box and can note who signed it. That feeds into the market notes of the item for sale. You can see an example of this in my store's Frank Miller signed Sin City issue. I clicked the Signature box, added Frank Miller's name in the text field, added the CBLDF comment in the market notes and added the cover image.

Currently, I have a shelf for Signed Comics in my store should anyone really want to look and to make an attempt to segregate them from "clean" copies.

Where there is a need is for Market Notes and Signatures to be obvious to buyers. And that is on the not-so-short list CCL currently is working on.

3) Adding a variant to EVERY comic so a couple sellers can separately list them is NOT the easiest way to make signed comics more obvious. At best, it'd be a time intensive shortcut for one or two stores that provides little benefit to the vast majority of users and stores while making a mess of the database and user reports. I said it earlier, this isn't eBay where everything gets a unique listing. It's not just an e-store. It's primarily a cataloging system which means there are standards and controls.

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Alarion
Posted: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 7:57:56 PM

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And this is where you could allow for listing online instead of only through the app, and allow sellers to add "unofficial" items. There are implications with this - but why restrict the sellers on this and lose out on the listing fees?

Just make a clearly marked "shelf" called unofficial, add some new documentation and add a prompt when someone adds an issue from this category, which the user could suppress after the first time.
freakdylan
Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2012 12:44:02 PM

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Adding newsstands = YES
Adding signed books with no COA = NO NO NO

Every year people sell millions and millions worth of autographed memorabilia that is FAKE, and if CCL added the ability of store to add unconfirmed signed comics thieves would come in droves to sell fakes.

Newsstands are very easy to distinguish as they are made by the manufacturer, but signatures are a dime a dozen with out a COA (real one). Seriously anyone could easily find someone who could duplicate Stan Lees sig and make thousands a month selling non COA Stan Lee sigs if CCL allowed stores to sell them. And dont think for a second someone wouldnt!




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outcast
Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:10:22 AM
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I spotted a mention of Mile High Comics' newsstand comics program in a recent e-mail newsletter from MHC's Chuck Rozanski. I thought that those who read the recent discussion here might be interested. Here is what Rozanski had to say:

"[Employee Will Moulton's] other major task is continuing to create inventory records of all of the newsstand variant editions of Marvel and DC comics. After many, many requests from readers of this newsletter, we began our herculean program of separating out our newsstand editions out from our Direct Market (comics shop) editions about this time last year. We now have over 30,000 (!) newsstand variants listed and scanned in our database. Even with all that effort, however, we still have been unable to find definitive proof that some missing newsstand editions even exist. That having been said, our inventory teams are acutely aware of the importance of our identifying all newsstand editions in our database, so as we do locate copies of the particularly rare newsstand variants, we send them right to Will Moulton for documentation. Given another year of intense effort, I think that we will finally be able to list for you almost all Marvel and DC newsstand variants.

"I am telling you about our newsstand variants efforts because I thought that you might like to know that our newsstand variants are selling quite well, even though we list them at significant premiums over Direct Market editions. Simply put, there are quite a few astute comics fans worldwide who have completed their entire runs on all major Marvel and DC comics titles, and are now seeking to also complete much harder-to-find newsstand runs. The problem with this effort is that A) almost no other comics dealers even offer newsstand editions as an option, and B) the print runs on newsstand editions were oftentimes less than 10% of the Direct Market editions, especially on comics printed after 1995.

"The good news for those of you who read this newsletter is that I am alerting you to this new trend in comics collecting, far in advance. That means that you can probably still pick up a great many newsstand editions locally, at no premium at all, or even out of some dealer's bargain boxes. At first, locating newsstand editions may seem easy, but as you eventually try to fill in all the holes in your newsstand runs, however, I am certain that you are going to encounter the exact same scarcities of some specific issues that we have been experiencing. This is a really fun new area of comics collecting, but I do have to caution you that a few of those darn newsstand variants almost never show up, especially in NM condition. Which is precisely why seeking to complete a newsstand run is so much fun!"

(from Mile High Comics' e-mail newsletter sent Wednesday, August 8)
Thundercron
Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:29:13 AM

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Yeah, I don't think MHC would be putting this much effort into this venture if there wasn't some significant $$$ at the end of the tunnel. Doesn't this slam dunk the arguement that newsstand variants should only be added when there is a noticeable difference in value or collectibility? Or are we going to have to prove it on an issue by issue basis?

I really don't see why there should be further discussion on this. But I'm willing to bet there are those here who will still be dismissive of the words of the industry leader quoted above.
sgriffin
Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:00:17 PM

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I won't dismiss what MHC is doing, but I will note that the number of (paid) man hours he suggests it will take him to add newstand issues to his system is well beyond what CCL's volunteers can bear. As he states, they've been at work on this for a full year already, and expect another full year of intense effort. We, on the other hand, have a hard time getting all the new issues for this week listed (we get it done, but only because there are a few people who carry more than their share of the load).

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comicscastle
Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:37:00 PM

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sgriffin wrote:
We, on the other hand, have a hard time getting all the new issues for this week listed (we get it done, but only because there are a few people who carry more than their share of the load).
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Thundercron
Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:06:35 PM

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sgriffin wrote:
I won't dismiss what MHC is doing, but I will note that the number of (paid) man hours he suggests it will take him to add newstand issues to his system is well beyond what CCL's volunteers can bear. As he states, they've been at work on this for a full year already, and expect another full year of intense effort. We, on the other hand, have a hard time getting all the new issues for this week listed (we get it done, but only because there are a few people who carry more than their share of the load).


Which is why I still think the easiest fix is to create a checkbox/drop down box in the item details page to address this issue. Steve had mentioned that Jim would have to look at the feasability of this. Do we know if he has an opinion on his side of things?
Jim
Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:31:14 PM

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Hi Corey. I've been following this thread with interest. Personally it's something that I'd like to see added because I do recognize that there is a small but growing community of collectors for this niche and it represents more revenue possiblities for CCL. This feature isn't incredibly high on my list right now though. Once I've completed the task I'm working on right now I'll talk to Steve and Joe and see where it ranks with them. Even though it might seem like it, it's not a trivial change. It will require a database schema change, updates to the site and to the desktop software so we'll have to weigh effort vs reward.

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Thundercron
Posted: Friday, August 17, 2012 3:28:27 PM

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ErrantEntertainment wrote:
Hi Corey. I've been following this thread with interest. Personally it's something that I'd like to see added because I do recognize that there is a small but growing community of collectors for this niche and it represents more revenue possiblities for CCL. This feature isn't incredibly high on my list right now though. Once I've completed the task I'm working on right now I'll talk to Steve and Joe and see where it ranks with them. Even though it might seem like it, it's not a trivial change. It will require a database schema change, updates to the site and to the desktop software so we'll have to weigh effort vs reward.


Thanks Jim! Just knowing that it's doable works for me. I'm not pushing that it's done NOW--just having it on the radar that it's something that should be done is progress enough for the time being.
yourplace2
Posted: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 3:07:51 PM

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sgriffin wrote:
I won't dismiss what MHC is doing, but I will note that the number of (paid) man hours he suggests it will take him to add newstand issues to his system is well beyond what CCL's volunteers can bear. As he states, they've been at work on this for a full year already, and expect another full year of intense effort. We, on the other hand, have a hard time getting all the new issues for this week listed (we get it done, but only because there are a few people who carry more than their share of the load).


Catching up in this thread...

Two things to add comments about:

1. NICHE..
2. Time needed to update CCL Database...

My Comments:
1. I would like to challenge this idea and throw it out there for verification, if possible, on exactly what would be considered a "NICHE" market or NICHE group of collectors, and how that should be defined.

CCL has a NICHE group of SELLERS. If You look at the MISC STATS (link on left column), and you see the majority of same sellers in that TOP TEN list each month. I wonder how many sellers are actually having SALES period. I would not be surprised if the number is about 20 to 30. I would call that a NICHE compared to the number of CCL subscribers. How many Subscribers are ACTIVE and PAID? How many sales are there really going on here on CCL? Enough to say that their is a NICHE out there on any topic?

2. If you take all the comic collectors out there, off of CCL and on CCL, I would not be surprised if you found that CCL is a NICHE compared to the ALL COLLECTORS. For what ever reason. Evidense of this is look at MILEHIGH's prices. Who would pay them if you compared them to CCL's sellers? This is evidence that CCL is lacking BUYERS. MILE HIGH should lose buyers to CCL, but I really believe that Buyers at MILEHIGH just have not seen CCL stores. That is a NICHE. MILEHIGH obviously wants to get sales from the buyers looking for Newstand variants, so they have made it a priority and goal to list them separately, and made time for it.

Why can't CCL allow collectors and sellers to add them to the DB as they become available? CCL does not currently list all new variants as they are created and found, only adding it when requested. My point is, you do not have to take this NICHE thing like it is a major project. Add them as they are requested. Let collectors/sellers scan them and add them on their time. The value is, now it can begin to ACCURATELY COLLECT DATA ABOUT IT. You can not gather factual data about NEWSTAND VARIANTS if you do not separate it from regular issues or Direct Issues. Same with a signature. That check box is helpful to a buyer/ but gather's no separate data once it sells. Once it is sold, the sales data effects all sales of that issue. In the chart, you have no data there to reflect that a comic that sold was signed or not. You just have the price and condition.

I once had a buyer purchase a bunch of comics, and then return some of them, because they were not the SPIDEY LOGO ones. This is a rare person to do this, but that buyer found a way to get those he wanted most, and made extra work for buyer and seller.





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Thundercron
Posted: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 3:33:51 PM

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Regarding the comment about market stats--good point there.
Xylob
Posted: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 4:51:57 PM

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Thundercron wrote:
Yeah, I don't think MHC would be putting this much effort into this venture if there wasn't some significant $$$ at the end of the tunnel...
And I'm positive Chuck would never exaggerate the amount of time and effort he's putting into his latest herculean effort to create a new market to exploit...

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Xylob
Posted: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 4:56:20 PM

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yourplace2 wrote:
...Evidense of this is look at MILEHIGH's prices. Who would pay them if you compared them to CCL's sellers? This is evidense that CCL is lacking BUYERS. MILE HIGH should lose buyers to CCL...
I see this basic argument here a lot, but rarely see the actual evidence. In fact I just purchased a large (for me) order of 80s & 90s back-issues from Mile High because their prices were literally a fraction of what it would have cost me to buy those same books here.
It has been my experience that the majority of CCL sellers are very proud of their common high print run back-issues.

Need help with a Change Request?Click here to contact an approver!
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