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COUNTERFEIT COMICS Options
vacantpassenger
Posted: Thursday, May 29, 2008 11:14:15 PM

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comicscastle wrote:
By the way, since Marvel never produced any of these they aren't technically counterfeits. They are unauthorized variants, but a counterfeit is a copy being passed off as the original. They still shouldn't be offered for sale, but it is different from a counterfeit on a technical scale.


According to overstreet, they would be considered counterfeits. For example, the case with the Batman #497 Platinum Edition. It's not passed as an original, but it still wasn't published by DC.

Anything not produced by the publisher that is being sold as if it was is a counterfeit.

Aardvarkvcg
Posted: Thursday, May 29, 2008 11:34:23 PM

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bovard wrote:
I agree with ComicsCastle, and Joe of CCL, that while the counterfeits should certainly not be available to buy or sell on CCL, and should not be acknowledged as legitimate, it still seems important to recognize that they exist and inform collectors to be careful. I understand that's the purpose of the sticky post this topic is under, but is that enough? Maybe it is, maybe it is not.


I tend to agree but... adding them to the database lends legitimacy and exposure to an illegal product.





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Batman007
Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:18:43 AM

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comicscastle wrote:
It is good work finding out they're counterfeit, but should they be removed? They are still comic books and they do exist. I think they should be included in the database but they should be listed as counterfeit in the cover description area. Something like "Counterfeit - Not Authorized by Marvel". What do the rest of you think?


You don't see copies of the Mona Lisa hanging in museums do you? Stamp and coin dealers don't sell fakes do they? Or let's say I go out and xerox Action Comics #1 in Black & White, could I then claim that I have an ultra rare limited black & white Variant of that Issue that's limited to 1 copy? Fakes have no place here in the Database that's trying to be as factual and complete as possible. If you want to have it listed in your collection, Add a double entry of the Issue and use a personal scan and make the counterfeit note for your Catalog.
comicscastle
Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:32:30 AM

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Batman007 wrote:
comicscastle wrote:
It is good work finding out they're counterfeit, but should they be removed? They are still comic books and they do exist. I think they should be included in the database but they should be listed as counterfeit in the cover description area. Something like "Counterfeit - Not Authorized by Marvel". What do the rest of you think?


You don't see copies of the Mona Lisa hanging in museums do you? Stamp and coin dealers don't sell fakes do they? Or let's say I go out and xerox Action Comics #1 in Black & White, could I then claim that I have an ultra rare limited black & white Variant of that Issue that's limited to 1 copy? Fakes have no place here in the Database that's trying to be as factual and complete as possible. If you want to have it listed in your collection, Add a double entry of the Issue and use a personal scan and make the counterfeit note for your Catalog.

Actually museums do sell counterfeits. Many famous artists, Van Gogh in particular, had students that copied their style and those students works are sold, just not as originals. Coin dealers also sell counterfeits, but again not as originals but as what they are.

I'm not trying to justify these dishonest books. I think if they are listed and noted as what they are it will help many unsuspecting buyers to not buy them. Look at Overstreet's listing for Eerie #1. It mentions the counterfeits and states that they are practicly worthless. That's what I think is needed here. They should certainly not be allowed to be sold.



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vaultofhorror
Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:39:28 AM

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comicscastle wrote:
OK, I found the link and I see it was well discused with Dale taking my view so I don't need to say more. Luckily I don't have any nor do I want any, but I feel sorry for the person who has one and can't add it to his collection because the database won't allow it.


I have to say I agree with you on this, they should not be available for sale. However informing people these are counterfeit and they should steer away from them, is a great service for the comic community. Some people may continue to buy them, I may have picked one up if I saw it at a convention. However now being informed, I am not looking twice.

vaultofhorror
Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:42:07 AM

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vacantpassenger wrote:
comicscastle wrote:
By the way, since Marvel never produced any of these they aren't technically counterfeits. They are unauthorized variants, but a counterfeit is a copy being passed off as the original. They still shouldn't be offered for sale, but it is different from a counterfeit on a technical scale.


According to overstreet, they would be considered counterfeits. For example, the case with the Batman #497 Platinum Edition. It's not passed as an original, but it still wasn't published by DC.

Anything not produced by the publisher that is being sold as if it was is a counterfeit.


Agreed, anything not published by the publisher is counterfeit. Regardless if its trying to pass as the original or not, it's a fake plain and simple.

comicscastle
Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:45:58 AM

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vaultofhorror wrote:
comicscastle wrote:
OK, I found the link and I see it was well discused with Dale taking my view so I don't need to say more. Luckily I don't have any nor do I want any, but I feel sorry for the person who has one and can't add it to his collection because the database won't allow it.


I have to say I agree with you on this, they should not be available for sale. However informing people these are counterfeit and they should steer away from them, is a great service for the comic community. Some people may continue to buy them, I may have picked one up if I saw it at a convention. However now being informed, I am not looking twice.


My point exactly. That's why I think it should be added in some way.



The following stores are all stores that I've dealt with or have become friends with through the forums and I highly recommend them all.
Comics Castle-owned & operated by Pat McCauslin
Alpha Comics--ComicVortex--Metropolis Connections 2.0--Comic Cellar


Batman007
Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 2:13:06 AM

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comicscastle wrote:
I'm not trying to justify these dishonest books. I think if they are listed and noted as what they are it will help many unsuspecting buyers to not buy them. Look at Overstreet's listing for Eerie #1. It mentions the counterfeits and states that they are practicly worthless. That's what I think is needed here. They should certainly not be allowed to be sold.


That's what this thread is for. Unlicensed and unauthorized fakes should not be placed next to legitimate books. Like I said in the other thread, if they're not listed in the Database there's no chance they'll ever be listed for sale. By including them in the Database you're creating a market for them and thus legitimizing them.

comicscastle wrote:
Actually museums do sell counterfeits. Many famous artists, Van Gogh in particular, had students that copied their style and those students works are sold, just not as originals. Coin dealers also sell counterfeits, but again not as originals but as what they are.


Yes they sell them as counterfeits and copies, not originals. The reason these fakes were created in the first place was to pass off as originals.
vacantpassenger
Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 11:32:44 AM

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Yeah, I don't know what the debate is about anymore. This was already debated months ago and a decision was already made.

Anything not produced by the publisher and passed off as an original is a counterfeit. Joe doesn't want them is the DB. If you read the other thread that is what I originally wanted and not just a list, but because when something is added to the database it allows people to be able to sell them, and Joe doesn't want that under any circumstances. Yes they exist, but not in CCLs database.

comicscastle
Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 2:24:46 PM

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vacantpassenger wrote:
Yeah, I don't know what the debate is about anymore. This was already debated months ago and a decision was already made.

Anything not produced by the publisher and passed off as an original is a counterfeit. Joe doesn't want them is the DB. If you read the other thread that is what I originally wanted and not just a list, but because when something is added to the database it allows people to be able to sell them, and Joe doesn't want that under any circumstances. Yes they exist, but not in CCLs database.


There's no debate, this is just a discussion. I'm in total agreement that these should never be allowed to be sold. If the system is such that any book in the database can be listed for sale then these should not be in the database. No arguement there on any level. My only point is that I feel they should be listed so others aren't duped into buying them. This thread helps, but lets be honest most of the 57,000 members don't cruise the forums. Of course I would only want them listed if they could not be listed for sale. That might not be possible as the database is currently set up, but I'm sure it could be done. Even though this was discussed months ago it doesn't hurt to discuss it again. I know I'm not the only new voice to be heard, and nothing is set in stone. Everything on this site can, and is, being tweeked as time goes on.

Bottom line is I do agree that these should never be listed for sale on this site. That you CAN set in stone.



The following stores are all stores that I've dealt with or have become friends with through the forums and I highly recommend them all.
Comics Castle-owned & operated by Pat McCauslin
Alpha Comics--ComicVortex--Metropolis Connections 2.0--Comic Cellar


The_Valiant_One
Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:31:45 PM

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I'm going to go you one better guys - Talking with Joe about the whole counterfeit comic deal, this is what we've decided:

We will keep the issues in the database - HOWEVER, the issues such as the Thor #1 Gold and the other Gold Foils as well should be denoted with information on their illegal nature. If you don't want to have them in the database, remember, that you now have the ability to remove issues from your database's local, SO...if you don't consider the Thor #1 Gold to be worth the trouble of having it in your local software, then you can remove it and not acknowledge it.

Using the Batman #497 phony as an example, or even how about the Venom: Lethal Protector #1 Black edition... - these issues are still listed in the Overstreet, but with information letting collectors know about their authenticity so they can be informed.

Having the book doesn't really mean we are validating it by acknowldging it - it means that we want to inform the public as to the nature of books like this.

However, I can't STRESS to you enough that we are VERY appreciative to everyone who helps the community as a whole be on the lookout for fakes like these.

OH, and we will NOT allow stores to sell these books either.
Batman007
Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 4:41:04 PM

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Sounds good to me. Everyone should be happy with this.

You guys should go to the Mideast and barter some peace there!
comicscastle
Posted: Friday, May 30, 2008 5:02:12 PM

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The_Valiant_One wrote:
I'm going to go you one better guys - Talking with Joe about the whole counterfeit comic deal, this is what we've decided:

We will keep the issues in the database - HOWEVER, the issues such as the Thor #1 Gold and the other Gold Foils as well should be denoted with information on their illegal nature. If you don't want to have them in the database, remember, that you now have the ability to remove issues from your database's local, SO...if you don't consider the Thor #1 Gold to be worth the trouble of having it in your local software, then you can remove it and not acknowledge it.

Using the Batman #497 phony as an example, or even how about the Venom: Lethal Protector #1 Black edition... - these issues are still listed in the Overstreet, but with information letting collectors know about their authenticity so they can be informed.

Having the book doesn't really mean we are validating it by acknowldging it - it means that we want to inform the public as to the nature of books like this.

However, I can't STRESS to you enough that we are VERY appreciative to everyone who helps the community as a whole be on the lookout for fakes like these.

OH, and we will NOT allow stores to sell these books either.
Perfect!!!!!!!! You guys are amazing. This is why I feel so strongly about this site. I'm so glad I found it. Thanks also to Batman007, VacantPassenger, VaultofHorror and everyone else who chimed in with thoughts and suggestions. It's great when different views can be tossed around in a friendly manner until a final resolution is worked out. I can't say it enough, this place is great.



The following stores are all stores that I've dealt with or have become friends with through the forums and I highly recommend them all.
Comics Castle-owned & operated by Pat McCauslin
Alpha Comics--ComicVortex--Metropolis Connections 2.0--Comic Cellar


Aardvarkvcg
Posted: Saturday, May 31, 2008 1:59:30 AM

Rank: Large Noggin
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Joined: 10/19/2007
Posts: 341
Points: 1,453
The_Valiant_One wrote:
I'm going to go you one better guys - Talking with Joe about the whole counterfeit comic deal, this is what we've decided:

We will keep the issues in the database - HOWEVER, the issues such as the Thor #1 Gold and the other Gold Foils as well should be denoted with information on their illegal nature. If you don't want to have them in the database, remember, that you now have the ability to remove issues from your database's local, SO...if you don't consider the Thor #1 Gold to be worth the trouble of having it in your local software, then you can remove it and not acknowledge it.

Using the Batman #497 phony as an example, or even how about the Venom: Lethal Protector #1 Black edition... - these issues are still listed in the Overstreet, but with information letting collectors know about their authenticity so they can be informed.

Having the book doesn't really mean we are validating it by acknowldging it - it means that we want to inform the public as to the nature of books like this.

However, I can't STRESS to you enough that we are VERY appreciative to everyone who helps the community as a whole be on the lookout for fakes like these.

OH, and we will NOT allow stores to sell these books either.


Perfect!


* Over 33,000 listed comics in stock
* Incredible Prices
* White Glove treatment.. all books shipped domestically are bagged and boarded
* Real world shipping prices
* Free Shipping Option
* International Shipping


Shop Aardvarks!

www.theanteater.net

Southern Maryland Pokemon
pkcomics
Posted: Saturday, May 31, 2008 11:29:22 AM

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Here I am , Mikey Come Lately! I think the resolution to this issue is right on the money. Just goes to show you that comic book collectors can have a civilized discussion and come up with a positive solution. Now if we could just fix the rest of the world!





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The_Valiant_One
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 3:08:49 PM

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The official wording has been up for about a week now on the THOR #1 Gold Edition in the CCL db: you can view it here if you haven't seen it already:

Thor # 1 - Counterfeit Gold Edition

I appreciate everyone who helped me out with this, including Marvel - if the other two pop up out there on CCL, we'll know how to handle this.



vaultofhorror
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 3:14:40 PM

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This is great to see, I think this is going to be a great addition to the database. Someone who may have bought a #497 platinum or a Thor Gold Foil, can not steer away from them knowing they are fakes.

Who would want to own a counterfeit comic??? I think that is even more atrocious that counterfeiting money, you are fooling a collector on what they are proud on owning.

loganzak
Posted: Friday, August 22, 2008 12:16:21 AM

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the Idea still urks me

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philv
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 7:00:28 PM
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I'm writing an essay for my law grad class on the existence of counterfeit comics. I was wondering whether any of you guys knew where I could find information on them? Anything would be helpful but definitely things like: the extent of their existence? is it a highly specialized crime? to what extent are their creators caught and prosecuted? specific case studies would be great. any help would be great!
punisherfan1138
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:09:03 PM
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philv wrote:
I'm writing an essay for my law grad class on the existence of counterfeit comics. I was wondering whether any of you guys knew where I could find information on them? Anything would be helpful but definitely things like: the extent of their existence? is it a highly specialized crime? to what extent are their creators caught and prosecuted? specific case studies would be great. any help would be great!


Well, this was the first thing that came up on google...
http://www.comiccollectorlive.com/forum/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=6948
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