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Moral question Options
BurningDoom
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 12:00:42 PM

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Jim wrote:
padreglcc wrote:
Flagwaver wrote:
Jim wrote:
comic clint wrote:
So I listed a sonic comic for $9 then researched it--- selling for $40 + --- The Item sold before I could take it down---- I reallly want to cancel the transaction.... any thoughts?

I don't think you're obligated but it may win you a repeat customer.


Uh, how is he not obligated? He listed the book for one price and it sold before he had a chance to jack it up. Just because these are comics, it does not mean you can forego ethics. But, then, those who work for CCL seem to never have learned about things like honesty and being true to your word.


That's pretty close to slander, my friend. Please be cautious not to defame others on the boards, which is against the forum rules and will warrant a warning.

PS - Clint, for what it's worth, I think you're doing the right thing.


Sellers are only obligated to do one of two things. Send items after they're paid for or refund money if the items aren't going to be sent out.

The moral or ethical decision to issue a refund once he realizes that he is selling below the items value is his alone to make albeit at the risk of his online reputation.

In this case I agree that it might be a good idea for him to send the book but I do not agree that its a canned decision that should be made every time. If he'd listed a book valued at $300 or $400 for $10 and only realized it when checkout was complete I might have recommended that he refund the buyers money along with an apologetic PM.

And, a seller adjusting the price of a book to it's average value is no more "jacking it up" than a buyer getting it for significantly below value is "a good deal".


He is absolutely obligated to honor the price once a sale is made, otherwise it's fraud:

Quote:
In the United States, courts have held that the purveyor using a bait-and-switch operation may be subject to a lawsuit by customers for false advertising, and can be sued for trademark infringement by competing manufacturers, retailers, and others who profit from the sale of the product used as bait.




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BurningDoom
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 12:02:29 PM

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comicscastle wrote:
BurningDoom wrote:
Since we're on the subject of the CCA:

I've always thought it was amazing that nobody sued them for freedom of press. It's one of the most important foundations our nation was founded on.

I understand how it was overlooked during that era of "The Red Scare" and the U.S. government pushing the whole "American Dream" ideal to push their Cold War agenda.

But after the 60s happened, you'd think someone (other than small indie Underground Comix companies) would have opened their eyes enough and challenged the CCA.
Comic companies submitted their books to the CCA voluntarily so there was no violation of freedom of press.

Here's a link to the Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority


I just realized I posted this in the wrong thread. Blush

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Jim
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 12:26:28 PM

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BurningDoom wrote:
Jim wrote:
padreglcc wrote:
Flagwaver wrote:
Jim wrote:
comic clint wrote:
So I listed a sonic comic for $9 then researched it--- selling for $40 + --- The Item sold before I could take it down---- I reallly want to cancel the transaction.... any thoughts?

I don't think you're obligated but it may win you a repeat customer.


Uh, how is he not obligated? He listed the book for one price and it sold before he had a chance to jack it up. Just because these are comics, it does not mean you can forego ethics. But, then, those who work for CCL seem to never have learned about things like honesty and being true to your word.


That's pretty close to slander, my friend. Please be cautious not to defame others on the boards, which is against the forum rules and will warrant a warning.

PS - Clint, for what it's worth, I think you're doing the right thing.


Sellers are only obligated to do one of two things. Send items after they're paid for or refund money if the items aren't going to be sent out.

The moral or ethical decision to issue a refund once he realizes that he is selling below the items value is his alone to make albeit at the risk of his online reputation.

In this case I agree that it might be a good idea for him to send the book but I do not agree that its a canned decision that should be made every time. If he'd listed a book valued at $300 or $400 for $10 and only realized it when checkout was complete I might have recommended that he refund the buyers money along with an apologetic PM.

And, a seller adjusting the price of a book to it's average value is no more "jacking it up" than a buyer getting it for significantly below value is "a good deal".


He is absolutely obligated to honor the price once a sale is made, otherwise it's fraud:

Quote:
In the United States, courts have held that the purveyor using a bait-and-switch operation may be subject to a lawsuit by customers for false advertising, and can be sued for trademark infringement by competing manufacturers, retailers, and others who profit from the sale of the product used as bait.




I think you're misunderstanding the definition of bait and switch.

"First, customers are "baited" by merchants' advertising products or services at a low price, but when customers visit the store, they discover that the advertised goods are not available, or the customers are pressured by sales people to consider similar, but higher priced items ("switching")."

There is no switching happening here. Worst case scenario it's a pricing mistake, best case it's a loss leader. Neither of which are illegal.

I get that it frustrates you as a consumer who is out to find a good deal, it would certainly frustrate me too, but there is no fraud here. If this had happened in person he might have realized his mistake before money changed hands and not accepted the sale up front but because of the way the technology works online it generally happens the other way around and retailers are absolutely not obligated by any law to honor the sale as long as the consumers are properly reimbursed.

Take the recent airline debacle for example; there was a "glitch" that allowed customers to buy airline tickets for $5 that a bunch of people jumped on and as soon as the airlines discovered it they weighed whether or not to honor the sales. They were under no legal obligation to do so but decided their reputation was worth more than a few thousand dollars. If the amount in question was in the tens of thousands or million I would not be surprised if they has gone the other way and not honored the sales since it would hurt their business to much.

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BurningDoom
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 12:45:23 PM

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Okay, if "bait and switch" isn't quite the right terminology, how about "false advertising", which is also illegal:

Quote:
False advertising or deceptive advertising is the use of false or misleading statements in advertising. As advertising has the potential to persuade people into commercial transactions that they might otherwise avoid, many governments around the world use regulations to control false, deceptive or misleading advertising. "Truth" refers to essentially the same concept, that customers have the right to know what they are buying, and that all necessary information should be on the label.

False advertising, in the most blatant of contexts, is illegal in most countries.


And it wasn't a simple mistake. He didn't know what it was worth until he looked it up after the fact. He said so himself. It's not the consumer's fault that he didn't pay attention to his own pricing.

Not saying he's some criminal that deserves to be punished, or anything. I'm just saying that he IS obligated to honor the price.

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Jim
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 12:59:11 PM

Rank: CCL Mobile App Dev
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BurningDoom wrote:
Okay, if "bait and switch" isn't quite the right terminology, how about "false advertising", which is also illegal:

Quote:
False advertising or deceptive advertising is the use of false or misleading statements in advertising. As advertising has the potential to persuade people into commercial transactions that they might otherwise avoid, many governments around the world use regulations to control false, deceptive or misleading advertising. "Truth" refers to essentially the same concept, that customers have the right to know what they are buying, and that all necessary information should be on the label.

False advertising, in the most blatant of contexts, is illegal in most countries.


And it wasn't a simple mistake. He didn't know what it was worth until he looked it up after the fact. He said so himself. It's not the consumer's fault that he didn't pay attention to his own pricing.

Not saying he's some criminal that deserves to be punished, or anything. I'm just saying that he IS obligated to honor the price.


Also not quite the same thing as false advertising according to the FTC found here. But I concede that there could be a decent argument made if he actually posted and advertisement for the book at that price, made the sale, and then changed his mind on the price.

Actually, that article has a ton of good information about selling above or below MSRP that many sellers here would find valuable. Especially the parts that pertain directly to selling new releases a below MSRP and how it has affected the general expectation of consumers to be able to buy books below cover price and conversely when new books are offered above cover price they tend to feel "gouged" as a result.

But to this topic I think Clint was appropriate to title the thread "Moral question" because the question of his obligation here is a moral one and is something not everyone is going to see eye to eye on. So I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Happy

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padreglcc
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 3:17:49 PM

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Jim wrote:
Actually, that article has a ton of good information about selling above or below MSRP that many sellers here would find valuable. Especially the parts that pertain directly to selling new releases a below MSRP and how it has affected the general expectation of consumers to be able to buy books below cover price and conversely when new books are offered above cover price they tend to feel "gouged" as a result.

I've gotten so used to getting 20% off new books at my LCS that paying just cover price feels like being gouged. Winking

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Jim
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 3:25:02 PM

Rank: CCL Mobile App Dev
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padreglcc wrote:
Jim wrote:
Actually, that article has a ton of good information about selling above or below MSRP that many sellers here would find valuable. Especially the parts that pertain directly to selling new releases a below MSRP and how it has affected the general expectation of consumers to be able to buy books below cover price and conversely when new books are offered above cover price they tend to feel "gouged" as a result.

I've gotten so used to getting 20% off new books at my LCS that paying just cover price feels like being gouged. Winking


*raises hand*
Guilty as charged. I cringe when I miss a book or two and have to pay cover price the following week. lol

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Khaine
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 3:32:07 PM
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As a buyer if a shop did that to me, I would never ever ever buy from them again. If a shop let me know what a great deal I got because they neglected to update their prices (which has happened to me on CCL before) I would be a pretty loyal customer to said store, when they had stuff in I wanted and would choose them before others with the same items (even if those items were a little bit more expensive because said owner has class).

BurningDoom
Posted: Friday, October 18, 2013 6:35:38 PM

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Jim wrote:
padreglcc wrote:
Jim wrote:
Actually, that article has a ton of good information about selling above or below MSRP that many sellers here would find valuable. Especially the parts that pertain directly to selling new releases a below MSRP and how it has affected the general expectation of consumers to be able to buy books below cover price and conversely when new books are offered above cover price they tend to feel "gouged" as a result.

I've gotten so used to getting 20% off new books at my LCS that paying just cover price feels like being gouged. Winking


*raises hand*
Guilty as charged. I cringe when I miss a book or two and have to pay cover price the following week. lol


I only get 10% off at my LCS for pre-orders.

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ukblueky
Posted: Saturday, October 19, 2013 12:43:06 AM

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I had this done to me here on CCL. Seller had a book listed for way below value (not hundreds but a few dozen) and after I paid they cancelled the order. I was ticked to say the lest. I don't think I have ordered from them since. Another time I ordered 2 copies of Hack Slash #1 (the original series) for a buck apiece (at the time they were selling for 45 and above everywhere else). The seller was Doug (Treehouse comics/ Crossbow comics). He honored the sale. I did feel guilty for the insanely low price but not guilty enough to not keep them.Devil I have since bought from him many times and always mention his name when a thread comes up asking for good sellers.

CrossbowComics
Posted: Saturday, October 19, 2013 1:21:04 AM

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ukblueky wrote:
I had this done to me here on CCL. Seller had a book listed for way below value (not hundreds but a few dozen) and after I paid they cancelled the order. I was ticked to say the lest. I don't think I have ordered from them since. Another time I ordered 2 copies of Hack Slash #1 (the original series) for a buck apiece (at the time they were selling for 45 and above everywhere else). The seller was Doug (Treehouse comics/ Crossbow comics). He honored the sale. I did feel guilty for the insanely low price but not guilty enough to not keep them.Devil I have since bought from him many times and always mention his name when a thread comes up asking for good sellers.


Thanks UK, yup that was a goof but you're making me feel better about it. I now know to check Mycomicshop, Ebay, etc when listing a book I'm not familiar with. Strangers in Paradise 1 is a good example, figured it was junk but after a little research I realized it was a scarce $50 book. Win some lose some.




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