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So, let me get this straight... Options
yourplace2
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:39:00 AM

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BUrning Doom, What do you pay?

I just found that the software is free for 30 days, then $29.95 for a year.

I do not remember paying that myself, long ago, but I pay about $15 a month for my store (plus commisions and listing fees). That's alot more than $29.95 a year.

I'm not unhappy at all with CCL, except the WHINING! LOL...

Laughing

My sales are what I put into it. To get people here I have to promote in places that will drive people here. I have to find a nitch also that is different from the other sellers on here. I do that very well when I put in the time.

I'm not looking at the CCL relationship the same as the whiners, and I'm offering them an alternate idea or path or view of things, that is more controllable than trying to get CCL to change their ways. If they took that energy they spend whining (obviously not working) and tried other successful views of it, then they may be happier and also successful in their own goals.

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SpidermanGeek
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:41:15 AM

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yourplace2 wrote:
I just found that the software is free for 30 days, then $29.95 for a year.


That's been the pricing for as long as I can remember (after it was no longer 100% free).



Make sure that you read and understand the forum rules, here.
BurningDoom
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:43:03 AM

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^ That's quite the spin. It's not at all CCL's fault for promising us this stuff, then pulling the rug out from under us? It's just that we're whining too much?

Call me crazy, but I think if you're given a promise, and you continue subscribing based on that promise, then CCL needs to follow-through on that promise. They haven't, they just keep telling us in one way or another it's coming (for years now).

And it doesn't matter if I pay $29.95 or $1.95 for the software. If I'm told to expect something, as a paying customer I except to see what I was told I would be paying for.

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Reggie
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:55:22 AM

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SpidermanGeek wrote:
yourplace2 wrote:
I just found that the software is free for 30 days, then $29.95 for a year.


That's been the pricing for as long as I can remember (after it was no longer 100% free).


+1 CCL built this software and offered it free at first. Then we all work hard (some ALOT more than others) to build the database for free on our own time. Now we are still working for free to add to the database on a daily basis plus paying money to access the content that WE added. I don't add a lot myself so I don't mind so much but it just does not make sense to me.



The_Valiant_One
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:40:02 PM

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BurningDoom wrote:
I'm not a seller. That's not what I'm "whining" about. I'm complaining that we've been promised the world for years now, and we've gotten (BANNED) except more lies about what's still coming.


In the most basic and simple form, that's not true. I don't know if you attended the Open Conference Calls Joe and I both set up for membership at the end of last year, but we explained to the ones who attended that at least $50K was spent in 2013 towards expansion and project planning for the current CCL project we're working on.

BurningDoom wrote:
And we get CCL for free? And it comes with upgrades? Both of those are news to me. I pay for CCL.


CCL's services are $29.95 a year (roughly $2.50 a month) and have been such for the last 5 years so this is not new news. You pay no more than any other member who signed up to use our services. And those services still work, unless you contact us and tell us for some reason that they don't, and we'll work to fix that problem. When (not if) CCL is updated, you will get those updates if you're still a subscriber.

BurningDoom wrote:
Like I said in my first post on this thread, though. I saw that thread getting shut-down coming. Thundercron is absolutely right. No business is going to stand for their competitors doing business on what is pretty much their property.


Joe shut the thread down because of comments made that violated the Terms and Conditions of CCL.

BurningDoom wrote:
HOWEVER, the reasons why the discussion started is what's got me upset. Instead of addressing our complaints and grumblings (yet again), they just try to calm the storm, which is a storm of their own making. And it's not like he wasn't already trying to get their attention in another thread for while before starting the one in question. That thread being started WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF CCL MANAGEMENT'S NEGLIGENCE OF CUSTOMER'S CONCERNS, PERIOD. But what's new? This has been CCL's M.O. for the last few years. Their spam-business and brick & mortar comic shop take precedence over us, and it couldn't be more obvious at this point.


Nate, I don’t know how many posts I’ve made in the forums telling people that if they want CCL’s direct attention to a subject DO NOT POST IN THE FORUMS. The Community Forums are for the Community and we aren’t able to respond back, post and comment to every thread. Sometimes, it’s a week or more before I make it to the thread. We have made our office phone number available. We have redirected and fixed our HELPDESK e-mail. The last time I checked our instant messaging system still works. Finally, I have even went so far as list my personal cellphone number and email address (at personal risk to myself, btw) to respond back to problems. “Trying to get our attention” by using the Community Forums for a direct response is NOT the way to do it. Unless someone messages me and says “There’s THIS thread you should check out” (which happens a lot) then that’s the way to go about it. Sellers and those who have a little closer relationship with CCL should not have to be reminded of this. “Well, I shouldn’t have to call, message or e-mail” is not a valid response or excuse btw. Which brings me to my next point…


If CCL management were neglecting customer concerns, the site would not still be running. The updates that CCL members want and honestly deserve are also not cheap. We are not going to simply patch what we already have. What we’re working on is a completely new CCL that no longer requires software and is accessible anywhere. (Again, referencing the Conference Calls from Oct and Nov.) As for the CCL’s brick and mortar store, it has been a MAJOR BENEFIT to the CCL brand. Beyond having sold multiple CCL Software on CD-ROMs and driving people to purchase comics on our site (yeah, that happens) I maintain personally maintain CCL’s shop at no cost to the company. I take time away from my family and do not receive any additional pay for running the shop. Additionally, we have CCL members that come to our shop to visit us. (Yeah, that happens too.) We also have not listed one single comic book on our OWN website just in the off-chance that it might be perceived as competing with our current sellers. And that “spam business” you mention? I won’t even dignify that with a response.

And Nate, on a personal level, Joe spoke directly with you over the phone and offered to refund you your $29.95 back some time ago, which I’m pretty sure we did. So if negligence in your mind is strictly no updates, then we’re guilty as charged.








BurningDoom
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:53:51 PM

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^ Oh yeah, that was a great conversation where it felt like I was in trouble and getting berated by Joe for voicing my opinion about your company's indifference. Glad you brought that up.

And let's get it straight here. I wasn't offered a refund out of the kindness of your hearts. I asked for a refund when I said I don't want to be a mod or represent a company that stifles their users' opinions, and I'd rather just not be a part of CCL at all if that's the case. I stayed because I believed the "promises" that were told to me after both our tempers flared down. But here we are again, with the same issue and I'm not the only one saying it.

To reply to your comment: Negligence, IMO, is promising your customers something. Not delivering for years on end. Then trying to stifle the negativity as a result of it. And only showing up when you feel you need to stifle the negativity. And maybe you guys SHOULD rethink your policy about showing up in the forums, since there's a lot of disgruntled people voicing their opinions there.

Like has been said by members other than me: Try to show up more than just to put out the fires and give us something significant other than just telling us it's coming for the umpteenth time. We only want what YOU told us was coming. And as paying customers, we should get what we pay for.

Is there anything you can show us other than more empty promises? Otherwise, I'm just gonna continue to take it as the B.S. that's been fed to us for years.

That doesn't mean I'm leaving. I love the CCL shops too much and the community here. I just don't have any faith in anything you guys (management/admin) say anymore until I see it.

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lbej
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 1:53:24 PM

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yourplace2 wrote:
BUrning Doom, What do you pay?

I just found that the software is free for 30 days, then $29.95 for a year.

I do not remember paying that myself, long ago, but I pay about $15 a month for my store (plus commisions and listing fees). That's alot more than $29.95 a year.

I'm not unhappy at all with CCL, except the WHINING! LOL...

Laughing

My sales are what I put into it. To get people here I have to promote in places that will drive people here. I have to find a nitch also that is different from the other sellers on here. I do that very well when I put in the time.

I'm not looking at the CCL relationship the same as the whiners, and I'm offering them an alternate idea or path or view of things, that is more controllable than trying to get CCL to change their ways. If they took that energy they spend whining (obviously not working) and tried other successful views of it, then they may be happier and also successful in their own goals.


Yourplace, please refrain from insulting other users--calling them whiners and claiming that they're obviously not working--because you disagree with their points of view or attitudes toward CCL management. You've done that in more than one post in this thread, and it needs to stop. You've now been warned.

Please make sure you read and understand the forum rules here
HeroComics
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:29:35 PM

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It seems like a lot of energy is being spent here on promises made and broken. Like Burning Doom and others I like it here. I no longer bother to look in the forums much because of this negative Torquemada-like attitude that has seeped into almost every aspect of the boards.

Meh. Nothing like constant negativity to drive away customers, eh? I have FIRED people before for deconstructive rabble-rousing. It must be frustrationg for your concerns to seemingly fall on deaf ears. I know it would frustrate me and make that vein stick out on my neck.

Steve did say on numerous occasions that this not the place to be heard on those subjects, rather call them instead. Seems like a better solution. I have actually done it a few times, and my concerns were well addressed.

I don't need to be told every week what is coming for CCL, any more than I want to hear how 'it has been so long... and we were promised'.

I just want to see it happen.

I am just voicing my opinion though.



comicscastle
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:32:28 PM

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lbej wrote:
yourplace2 wrote:
BUrning Doom, What do you pay?

I just found that the software is free for 30 days, then $29.95 for a year.

I do not remember paying that myself, long ago, but I pay about $15 a month for my store (plus commisions and listing fees). That's alot more than $29.95 a year.

I'm not unhappy at all with CCL, except the WHINING! LOL...

Laughing

My sales are what I put into it. To get people here I have to promote in places that will drive people here. I have to find a nitch also that is different from the other sellers on here. I do that very well when I put in the time.

I'm not looking at the CCL relationship the same as the whiners, and I'm offering them an alternate idea or path or view of things, that is more controllable than trying to get CCL to change their ways. If they took that energy they spend whining (obviously not working) and tried other successful views of it, then they may be happier and also successful in their own goals.


Yourplace, please refrain from insulting other users--calling them whiners and claiming that they're obviously not working--because you disagree with their points of view or attitudes toward CCL management. You've done that in more than one post in this thread, and it needs to stop. You've now been warned.
I think he was saying that the whining wasn't working, not that the poster wasn't working. That said it should still be pointed out that derogatory terms should not be used and referring to valid complaints as whining is derogatory.



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Xylob
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:37:16 PM

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The_Valiant_One wrote:
...The Community Forums are for the Community...
Anybody else remember way waaayyy back in the day when Steve and Joe counted themselves as members of that community and were an active part of it?
Ahhh... memories.

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patn2008
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 6:33:35 PM

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Xylob wrote:
The_Valiant_One wrote:
...The Community Forums are for the Community...
Anybody else remember way waaayyy back in the day when Steve and Joe counted themselves as members of that community and were an active part of it?
Ahhh... memories.


+1
dunleavy75
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 7:52:10 PM

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Thundercron wrote:
teh_longinator wrote:
I'd support Treehouse if they leave. If that's what this is all about. I haven't seen the other thread, but I completely support any stores that go out and try to make it on their own. CCL's income is directly funded by the membership fees, and the income of the store owners. But, CCL doesn't appreciate this, and frankly, probably doesn't care to realize it, since they are a part of a larger scam.

For CCL to threaten legal action over a guy saying he's jumping ship is just an admission of their lack of skill and knowledge as a business.


I'm sorry....scam?? I can understand CCL being accused of a lot of things, but I'm not sure scam-artists is one of them.

As for Joe threatening legal action...sure, he can threaten it. If you set up a store here and agree to certain terms and conditions, and you break those conditions, he has every right to come after you. True, I don't think any lawsuit would stick, since I think Joe would have to prove that Treehouse breaking the terms and conditions caused CCL to lose revenue, and I'm pretty much 100% sure that didn't happen. A competing cite didn't open, and it would be hard to prove that the thread in question caused people to not use the CCL services in some way.

But I see where Joe is coming from. I think people here get the personal side of Joe (as well as the personal side of CCL) mixed up with the business side. This is a business. Putting the kibosh on a thread talking about competing with CCL was a business move, and anyone that can think clearly would realize that. The original post on this thread ended with the line that what Joe did "seems to go against certain principles I was lead to believe that management/ownership had as human beings."

This has nothing to do with "principles" that ownership had as "human beings." This is a business. Someone started a conversation that could threaten that business. Joe dealt with it in a swift way to make sure it wouldn't happen again. End of story. Everyone needs to stop acting so offended.


Hey Thunder, first off, you stating "everyone needs to stop acting so offended", is kind of antagonistic, and quite frankly, why do you think you have the right to tell people how they should or should not feel?

Secondly, yes "principles" do have something to do with this because Joe (and I think Steve), claim to be Christians, which overrides your theory of "it's a business" and "he dealt with it swiftly". That is the point I was making about the principles, and the subsequent actions taken against Doug.

Joe/Steve could have just as easily PM'd Doug, explaining that they thought his posts violated policy, and that they'd like him to take them down. I think his posts were not really intended to start a competing site, but rather get their attention (because past attempts have failed) in a more zealous manner. Too much on his part? maybe, but again, he has a reputation on here as a great guy, seller, buyer, and paying customer of CCL, so I would've thought he would and should get the benefit of the doubt, and been talked to outside of the posts that threatened him.

In closing, I didn't start this thread so the same certain people can use it to further stroke their own ego or agenda. I simply thought something needed to be said in defense of Doug, as it appeared he might be shown the door. And lets be honest about something right now. I used to be a HUGE presence on these boards, telling everyone how great it was here back in the day and that the stores, management, and everything in-between was top notch. That has definitely fallen off in the last couple of years, hence why I don't frequent the boards very much anymore. I'll say this, when you have a guy like Pat that seems fed up, how can you ignore that? He's been the biggest cog in the CCL wheel since I've been around, and nobody would question his commitment or character (if you know him personally, for sure).

Have a nice day, and please keep it civil. Winking





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CrossbowComics
Posted: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:18:52 PM

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Hi guys, I can still post so guess I'm not banned yet. I know I broke rules & if I get punished in some way it's ok.

If you look at the closed thread, I mentioned several times that all is ok if CCL just sticks to the schedule they give us. If this 6 month thing goes on for another couple years I'll be gone, it's like how many times to you take being blown off before you find a new friend? That's really at the root of all the anger, not that the site is THAT bad but when people aren't straight up with you it's a problem.

So in a nutshell I'm sticking it out because I've invested so much time here, not to mention some good friends & great customers, but if my girlfriend comes home & finds me browsing match.com, guess what, be a partner I can count on & I won't go scoping other girls out.




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Atilla2k
Posted: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 10:34:48 AM

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patn2008 wrote:
Xylob wrote:
The_Valiant_One wrote:
...The Community Forums are for the Community...
Anybody else remember way waaayyy back in the day when Steve and Joe counted themselves as members of that community and were an active part of it?
Ahhh... memories.


+1


+1, back when CCL was a shiny new toy! Joe was a regular & steve was Superman it seemed, if you pm'd him it was answered in minutes & taken care of. Last time I pm'd him about SPAM it took days to get a response...

The Valliant One wrote:
The last time I checked our instant messaging system still works.




I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'....


vesuvious
Posted: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 11:26:00 AM
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As a contributor to the other thread I was rather taken back by it being locked as well as the threats from management. I guess on forums there is no freedom of speech, but on top of that the entire point of the thread was missed by management.

Joe said that he would never walk into your comic shop and say he could make a better store....but as a software designer I ABSOLUTELY will tell you if your software is garbage and what you can do to make it better. My users tell me what they expect out of my software every single day, and sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong....but either way I listen and try to work with them.

Go on Youtube and see if you can find anyone complaining about Youtube....does Youtube silence the protesters?

Go on Facebook and see if you can find anyone complaining about Facebook....do they threaten these users with legal action?

If you are going to run a service that people pay for then you need to listen to the people paying for it. Software is an extremely competitive market, and people have high expectations in the software they use. I guarantee that developers can create better software, faster, and cheaper. The only thing keeping people here is dedication to the product and that is obviously slipping.

caveat vendor
SwiftMann
Posted: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:05:51 PM

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vesuvious wrote:
I was rather taken back by it being locked as well as the threats from management.

Then that's just gross naivety on your part since you were planning a competing product which included potential data mining from this site.

Quote:
I guess on forums there is no freedom of speech

There isn't.

But beyond that, freedom of speech doesn't mean there aren't ramifications to your words.


I see that you've been a member since '09, but that particular thread was your first posts. Just seems odd to come out of nowhere, rehashing years old complaints which such fervor and venom.

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KingZombie
Posted: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:45:04 PM

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SwiftMann wrote:
vesuvious wrote:
I was rather taken back by it being locked as well as the threats from management.

Then that's just gross naivety on your part since you were planning a competing product which included potential data mining from this site.

Quote:
I guess on forums there is no freedom of speech

There isn't.

But beyond that, freedom of speech doesn't mean there aren't ramifications to your words.


I see that you've been a member since '09, but that particular thread was your first posts. Just seems odd to come out of nowhere, rehashing years old complaints which such fervor and venom.


It’s been stressed several times not to make personal attacks by mods and the OP and here you go calling this poster naïve and questioning his motives. He may be a veteran member but he’s new to the boards. How about laying off a bit?
yourplace2
Posted: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:09:13 PM

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APPROVERS, You missed my points totally, and at the same time, are practically telling me I'm guilty of breaking FORUM RULES and will be banned.

OK! I'll just stop taking sides with CCL, and stay off the boards. See ya!

Big Hug

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Spider-Man
Posted: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:13:35 PM

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yourplace2 wrote:
APPROVERS, You missed my points totally, and at the same time, are practically telling me I'm guilty of breaking FORUM RULES and will be banned.

OK! I'll just stop taking sides with CCL, and stay off the boards. See ya!

Big Hug

Wave


What are you talking about?

I don't see any Approvers that replied to your post.






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SwiftMann
Posted: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:54:31 PM

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KingZombie wrote:
It’s been stressed several times not to make personal attacks by mods and the OP and here you go calling this poster naïve and questioning his motives. He may be a veteran member but he’s new to the boards. How about laying off a bit?

Calling someone naive regarding a specific situation isn't a personal attack, it's an observation. Most folks could see that thread getting locked the moment it was started.

And I don't think it's beyond the pale for me to probe into the motivations of a poster that was silent for years until the discussion of building a competing site and data mining this one came up.

Nothing I said was rude or malicious, so how about we don't take being respectful to this extreme of not being allowed to disagree without drowning that disagreement in flowery words circled by rainbows and unicorns.

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