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Why doesnt CCL have a GRADING standard page? Options
freakdylan
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 2:44:13 PM

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Ok so yesterday I was window shopping here and saw a comic listed in FAIR condition. Now I have never bought a comic in that low of a condition and went to check what kind of flaws are allowed in that condition and realized CCL doesnt have a grading page.

So I had to leave CCL and go to the competitions website to read about the grade.

Wouldnt it make sense for CCL to add one more link at top of the site with a grading standard for CCL. Most people know what NM or MINT is but the difference in FINE to VF or VF to NM change from site to site or book to book. Also not everyone who sells comics HERE always knows the difference, as can be seen in a lot of the negative feedbacks. Something as simple as 1 page might help improve the site (NO UPGRADED SITE NEEDED) lol




Thanks to the following sellers for helping me put together my complete run of Amazing Spider-man #1-700

ComicsCastle
TreeHouse
Hall Of Heroes
Thundercron's Longbox
DrumCzar


Now for the sellers helping me finish my TMNT collection:

Hall Of Heroes
Green Bay Comics



Tamwood
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 4:22:53 PM

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1) Because there is no grading standard for CCL. That would mean that every store would have to grade according to a pre-set standard. And not everybody agrees on what certain grades are.

I have personally adjusted my grading standards during my years shopping here, and listing books here. I've seen how other people have graded books I've purchased, and from sellers whose opinions and judgement I trust, I've fine-tuned my grading.

I've received books listed as FINE that I would have considered VG, and I've received books listed as FINE that I would have considered Very Fine.

The language used to determine grades is very fluid. "Severe creasing." "Moderate creasing." "Minor creasing." One man's severe is another man's minor.

2) You make it sound like you had to completely reboot your computer. If you don't have an Overstreet handy (and really, anybody who even dabbles in Silver/Gold should have an Overstreet -- if for no other reason than the GRADING GUIDE), you can simply open a new tab on your browser.

3) The comic in question was FAIR. Which is the lowest grade available. Which means it's pretty much garbage to begin with. What were you expecting?
comicscastle
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 5:51:54 PM

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I have a list of my grading standards on my "About Us" page. I know several stores that use that list as their grading guide. It can be seen here: http://www.angelfire.com/comics/castle/images2/standards2.jpg Feel free to save the link in your favorites/bookmarks for handy referencing in the future.



The following stores are all stores that I've dealt with or have become friends with through the forums and I highly recommend them all.
Comics Castle-owned & operated by Pat McCauslin
Alpha Comics--ComicVortex--Comic Cellar


freakdylan
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 6:38:03 PM

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Tamwood wrote:
1) Because there is no grading standard for CCL. That would mean that every store would have to grade according to a pre-set standard. And not everybody agrees on what certain grades are.


Maybe my title was deceptive or confusing. I am not asking for a SET or FORCED grading guide, but ANY guide. Look at the facts CCL has 3 places it competes with (4 if you count ebay). AtomicAvenue, ComicsPriceGuide and Comicbookrealm. Of those only CBR doesnt have a guide. Even ebay has several pages with grading guides.



Tamwood wrote:
I've received books listed as FINE that I would have considered VG, and I've received books listed as FINE that I would have considered Very Fine.


I have too, and been refunded multiple times. Guess that guide would have come in handy.


Tamwood wrote:
2) You make it sound like you had to completely reboot your computer. If you don't have an Overstreet handy (and really, anybody who even dabbles in Silver/Gold should have an Overstreet -- if for no other reason than the GRADING GUIDE), you can simply open a new tab on your browser.


I never said any such thing. I said and I quote "I had to leave CCL and go to the competitions website" never did I say had too reboot. All I said was I had to leave CCL.

I mean they have a section in this forum titled "Please Grade My Book" why not just put a redirect in it too atomic avenues forum. Why not? Because it would be STUPID! So its just as stupid to make me visit that same site for something so simple as a price guide.



Tamwood wrote:
3) The comic in question was FAIR. Which is the lowest grade available. Which means it's pretty much garbage to begin with. What were you expecting?


I wasnt expecting anything was just curious, am I not allowed to be curious about a condition. Again as I stated in original post, never bought a FAIR book so was curious, is it allowed missing story pages etc, which it isnt (Thanks to those other websites info)


I would also like to point out that probably A LOT of the CCL customers here are NEW customers, so anything that would make that 1st purchase easier would probably be helpful.

Thanks to the following sellers for helping me put together my complete run of Amazing Spider-man #1-700

ComicsCastle
TreeHouse
Hall Of Heroes
Thundercron's Longbox
DrumCzar


Now for the sellers helping me finish my TMNT collection:

Hall Of Heroes
Green Bay Comics



BurningDoom
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 6:53:56 PM

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Tamwood wrote:
1) Because there is no grading standard for CCL. That would mean that every store would have to grade according to a pre-set standard. And not everybody agrees on what certain grades are.


And having a preset standard is a bad thing? That would be a great thing! The fact that nobody agrees on a grade is maddening. If we had a standard that every seller was held up to, then there would be less disputes about these things.

Make sure that you read and understand the forum rules here
KingZombie
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 8:48:41 PM

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Maybe this is a stupid question... but did you consider asking the seller why they graded the book as fair? Or ask them for a scan of the book?

Seems like the best way to get your answer.

MoonKnight1
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 9:17:04 PM

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I think Dylan has a great point. There could easily be a permanent post in the Please Grade My Book section of the Forum. It could be stated right up front that these are general guidelines and not CCL Policy.

It won't be that hard to come up with a couple of sentences explaining each grade. I agree that grading is extremely subjective but each grade has certain characteristics that are unique to it.

I would be more than happy to volunteer my time to get the ball rolling if there is enough interest.

What I would do is come up with a preliminary list of Grades and a short (1-2 sentence) description of each. I would then ask for input from the Community. It might take a week or so but once everybody is sufficiently satisfied we could then post the Grading Guide.

Thoughts?

Fantastic News! Hall of Heroes has now surpassed 600 Hero Ratings! I couldn't have done it without all of you and I will strive to maintain and improve my high standards. Which brings me to my next announcement - starting now, all shipments will come with tracking at no extra charge to you! I'm a little late to the party but as they say - better late than never. You spoke and I heard you loud and clear. Excelsior!



Hall Liquidations


padreglcc
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 9:26:17 PM

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MoonKnight1 wrote:
I think Dylan has a great point. There could easily be a permanent post in the Please Grade My Book section of the Forum. It could be stated right up front that these are general guidelines and not CCL Policy.

It won't be that hard to come up with a couple of sentences explaining each grade. I agree that grading is extremely subjective but each grade has certain characteristics that are unique to it.

I would be more than happy to volunteer my time to get the ball rolling if there is enough interest.

What I would do is come up with a preliminary list of Grades and a short (1-2 sentence) description of each. I would then ask for input from the Community. It might take a week or so but once everybody is sufficiently satisfied we could then post the Grading Guide.

Thoughts?


Pat is the Grade My Book Host. Feel free to work with him (and anyone else who might be interested). My 2 cents, for what it's worth, is that grading is sooooo subjective as to be almost worthless to me. As someone pointed out above, what one person sees as slight damage, another might feel is moderate. Since I'm interested in reading more than anything, as long as the book is readable, it makes very little difference to me.

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LadyJay
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:15:40 PM

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MoonKnight1 wrote:
I think Dylan has a great point. There could easily be a permanent post in the Please Grade My Book section of the Forum. It could be stated right up front that these are general guidelines and not CCL Policy.

It won't be that hard to come up with a couple of sentences explaining each grade. I agree that grading is extremely subjective but each grade has certain characteristics that are unique to it.

I would be more than happy to volunteer my time to get the ball rolling if there is enough interest.

What I would do is come up with a preliminary list of Grades and a short (1-2 sentence) description of each. I would then ask for input from the Community. It might take a week or so but once everybody is sufficiently satisfied we could then post the Grading Guide.

Thoughts?


I'm not sure I understand the point of going to that effort. As Pat mentioned earlier, he has a link to his grading standards on his About Us page and there have been many CCL stores who use that as their standard as well. So why not use that instead of creating something new?



BurningDoom
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 11:44:56 PM

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There already is a pretty standard grading guide out there at the front of every Overstreet Price Guide. My copy is a few years old. But if no one else has a later edition, I'd be happy to type up what's in mine.

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bovard
Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 11:54:21 PM

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MoonKnight1 wrote:
I think Dylan has a great point. There could easily be a permanent post in the Please Grade My Book section of the Forum. It could be stated right up front that these are general guidelines and not CCL Policy.

It won't be that hard to come up with a couple of sentences explaining each grade. I agree that grading is extremely subjective but each grade has certain characteristics that are unique to it.

I would be more than happy to volunteer my time to get the ball rolling if there is enough interest.

What I would do is come up with a preliminary list of Grades and a short (1-2 sentence) description of each. I would then ask for input from the Community. It might take a week or so but once everybody is sufficiently satisfied we could then post the Grading Guide.

Thoughts?


That's not a bad idea. And, it has been brought up many times on CCL, and for whatever reason it has not happened.

One of them is likely the limitations of such a description, which does not include specific pictures as examples for each grade and what is or is not allowed. For example: Some grades allow foxing, some don't, but most people don't know what foxing is, so without a visual guide showing what that looks like, it's not that helpful.

Also, imho, any such guide should be roughly based on the Overstreet Grading Guide, since that is what most would consider the industry standard - they are readily available on ebay or Amazon for $10 - $15, and can be very helpul. Obviously it is still a guide, and has limitations, and does not take the place of common sense and experience, but does provide a ton of info for a relativley low price and is a good starting point.


bovard
Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:00:32 AM

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BurningDoom wrote:
There already is a pretty standard grading guide out there at the front of every Overstreet Price Guide. My copy is a few years old. But if no one else has a later edition, I'd be happy to type up what's in mine.


I have not seen the grading guide in the price guide anymore, as they started publishing it as a separate book.


BurningDoom
Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:39:43 AM

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The latest edition I have has it in there, pg. 159.

Like I said, my edition is a little old though, so I don't know if it's changed since then. I have the 39th Edition, which has a 2009 indicia.

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Tamwood
Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:58:00 AM

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There is a 2-3 page bit in every Overstreet Price Guide which tells you the grades, and gives a small snippet about what can be expected in each grade. If you're thinking of scans/pictures of what to expect in a grade, then no, those are not present in the Overstreet Price Guide, but the out-of-print Overstreet Grading Guide. Two different books.

And I was incorrect before. FAIR is usually considered the lowest possible "collectible" grade. POOR, would actually be THE lowest grade.

And no, I don't think a strict set of guidelines here would be a good thing. I think it would drive many sellers away from the site, after a lot of whining about "this copy has THREE street marks, but only TWO are allowed in Grade XXX."


I don't know why I expected anything else, but once again, what I wrote (in point #2) was conveniently ignored/twisted around by OP. Should have known better than to attempt to make the effort. Won't happen again.
Thundercron
Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 3:24:15 AM

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The following link contains the grades as outlined in the front of each Overstreet Price Guide:

http://comics.ha.com/tutorial/comics-grading.s?show=comicdefinitions

I also want to point out that this is the second thread in a short time that I've seen people say that the Overstreet Grading Guide can be found on Amazon or elsewhere fairly cheap--not true. The widely-used third edition is out of print, and commands a premium when they turn up for sale. You can get a second edition guide, which I hear is passable, for a decent price. The first editions are also widely available, but those are very out of date (they actually use the short-lived 100-point system).
MoonKnight1
Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 9:02:58 AM

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Tamwood wrote:
1) Because there is no grading standard for CCL. That would mean that every store would have to grade according to a pre-set standard. And not everybody agrees on what certain grades are.

I have personally adjusted my grading standards during my years shopping here, and listing books here. I've seen how other people have graded books I've purchased, and from sellers whose opinions and judgement I trust, I've fine-tuned my grading.

I've received books listed as FINE that I would have considered VG, and I've received books listed as FINE that I would have considered Very Fine.

The language used to determine grades is very fluid. "Severe creasing." "Moderate creasing." "Minor creasing." One man's severe is another man's minor.

Not necessarily, there will be a disclaimer stating something to the effect that these are guidelines and not rules. Different stores have different standards and in no way is this CCL Policy. Just a general guide.

I have also adjusted my grading standards over the years. Sometimes I will look at a comic that I graded five years ago and wonder' "What was I thinking?". So what I'm saying is that grading is very subjective and even fluid and certainly not everyone agrees all the time. Doesn't CGC have a panel of Graders? If you send something in to be slabbed a number of different people grade the book and they take the average. If that's incorrect please let me know but that's been my understanding.

padreglcc wrote:
Pat is the Grade My Book Host. Feel free to work with him (and anyone else who might be interested). My 2 cents, for what it's worth, is that grading is sooooo subjective as to be almost worthless to me. As someone pointed out above, what one person sees as slight damage, another might feel is moderate. Since I'm interested in reading more than anything, as long as the book is readable, it makes very little difference to me.

I will certainly ask for Pat's help.

LadyJay wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the point of going to that effort. As Pat mentioned earlier, he has a link to his grading standards on his About Us page and there have been many CCL stores who use that as their standard as well. So why not use that instead of creating something new?

Won't be much of an effort. I can type something up in less than an hour, then submit it to everyone for nit-picking. Whenever a consensus has been reached then post it up. No problem at all and I have no problem offering my help.

Pat's grading standards are great and I respect his judgement. I will be counting on any contribution that he would offer.

Tamwood wrote:
And no, I don't think a strict set of guidelines here would be a good thing. I think it would drive many sellers away from the site, after a lot of whining about "this copy has THREE street marks, but only TWO are allowed in Grade XXX."


I agree. That's why I would make sure at the top of the post that it states implicitly that CCL Sellers are not bound by these grading standards. It is only a general guideline for informational purposes.

I think that it would be a good thing for the site to have a Grading Guide permanently posted. Imagine someone googling "on line grading guide" and CCL popping up on the first page?

This is a good discussion and I appreciate all of your input.

Fantastic News! Hall of Heroes has now surpassed 600 Hero Ratings! I couldn't have done it without all of you and I will strive to maintain and improve my high standards. Which brings me to my next announcement - starting now, all shipments will come with tracking at no extra charge to you! I'm a little late to the party but as they say - better late than never. You spoke and I heard you loud and clear. Excelsior!



Hall Liquidations


Thundercron
Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:51:45 PM

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Collectors since forever have mentioned that grading is subjective, and that it takes years of practice. Although this is true, it really doesn't need to be the case, and is largely Overstreet's fault by using general terms in their grades like "slight", "moderate", etc (as Tamwood pointed out). There's really no reason why the grades can't have specific numbers of allowable defects. It is possible to count spine creases, corner creases, measure lengths of creases, etc. But instead we're stuck with vague terms that require years of practice to figure out.

Also, it seems to me that CGC has been instrumental over the years in tightening up the higher grades. I know a lot of dealers who realize they can potentially get more money for higher-graded books (8.0-9.4) by selling them raw. You show the book to even veteran collectors and they will agree on a high grade, but then CGC will send it back as being lower.

Generally speaking, grading standards don't change over time, but it seems the Overstreet/CGC gang have been doing it for a while.

Just an observation.
BurningDoom
Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 2:08:05 PM

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Thundercron wrote:
The following link contains the grades as outlined in the front of each Overstreet Price Guide:

http://comics.ha.com/tutorial/comics-grading.s?show=comicdefinitions

I also want to point out that this is the second thread in a short time that I've seen people say that the Overstreet Grading Guide can be found on Amazon or elsewhere fairly cheap--not true. The widely-used third edition is out of print, and commands a premium when they turn up for sale. You can get a second edition guide, which I hear is passable, for a decent price. The first editions are also widely available, but those are very out of date (they actually use the short-lived 100-point system).


I have the Overstreet Grading Guide, as well. I don't have a scanner, unfortunately, and it's an entire book anyways. It really wouldn't be practical to try and post an entire book here.

I think the 2-3 page guide at the front of an Overstreet would work fine for the purposes we're talking about here. I mean it's not like sellers are gonna want to read the entire Grading Guide book anyways.

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CrossbowComics
Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 2:18:15 PM

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Thundercron wrote:
The following link contains the grades as outlined in the front of each Overstreet Price Guide:

http://comics.ha.com/tutorial/comics-grading.s?show=comicdefinitions

I also want to point out that this is the second thread in a short time that I've seen people say that the Overstreet Grading Guide can be found on Amazon or elsewhere fairly cheap--not true. The widely-used third edition is out of print, and commands a premium when they turn up for sale. You can get a second edition guide, which I hear is passable, for a decent price. The first editions are also widely available, but those are very out of date (they actually use the short-lived 100-point system).


It's been a couple years since I bought a guide so perhaps my advice is outdated. I picked up the 2nd edition for like $3.

I would be all for some sort of grading guideline, it's a bit silly for a site dedicated to comics to not at least have a link to something. Yes grading can be subjective but a lot of it is pretty cut & dry too. Heck if people just limited creases in VF to 1/4 inch it would save sooooo many headaches.

EDIT - Wow, just checked around, the 2nd edition is nowhere to be found & the 3rd edition fetches like $60. Pretty cool actually, it's evidence of how healthy the comic market is right now.




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BurningDoom
Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2014 2:52:22 PM

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CrossbowComics wrote:
Thundercron wrote:
The following link contains the grades as outlined in the front of each Overstreet Price Guide:

http://comics.ha.com/tutorial/comics-grading.s?show=comicdefinitions

I also want to point out that this is the second thread in a short time that I've seen people say that the Overstreet Grading Guide can be found on Amazon or elsewhere fairly cheap--not true. The widely-used third edition is out of print, and commands a premium when they turn up for sale. You can get a second edition guide, which I hear is passable, for a decent price. The first editions are also widely available, but those are very out of date (they actually use the short-lived 100-point system).


It's been a couple years since I bought a guide so perhaps my advice is outdated. I picked up the 2nd edition for like $3.

I would be all for some sort of grading guideline, it's a bit silly for a site dedicated to comics to not at least have a link to something. Yes grading can be subjective but a lot of it is pretty cut & dry too. Heck if people just limited creases in VF to 1/4 inch it would save sooooo many headaches.

EDIT - Wow, just checked around, the 2nd edition is nowhere to be found & the 3rd edition fetches like $60. Pretty cool actually, it's evidence of how healthy the comic market is right now.


Really? Wow, I'm gonna have to check mine when I get home. I might be putting it up on eBay if so. All it does is collect dust since I'm really not all that particular on condition as long as the book is readable and has it's cover attached.

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