Log In Forums Help
Comic Collector Live
Home :: CCL Messageboard
Find Comics for Sale
Items For Sale
All Comics For Sale
New Releases
CGC Comics
Bundled Lots
Store Locator
Search Library
Search By Title
Publisher
Story Arc
Character
Credits
Release Date
Change Request Manager
News & Reviews
Reviews
News
Our Products and Services
Get the Software
Buying Comics And Stuff
Selling Your Comics
Opening A Store
Community
Forum
Store Locator
Member Locator
Welcome Guest Active Topics
Batwoman Creative Walks Out After Controversial Editorial Decision Options
BurningDoom
Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2013 4:00:08 PM

Rank: Beyonder
Groups: Beta, Guru, Member, Moderator, Movies Host, Subscriber, TV Host

Joined: 1/5/2007
Posts: 12,395
Points: 59,863
Location: Redding, CA
Batwoman Creative Walks-Out of DC Comics After Controversial Editorial Decision



http://finance.yahoo.com/news/batwoman-creative-team-quits-dc-175013574.html

How many writers have to walk out of DC Comics before they realize they're shooting themselves in the foots by being so controlling over their writer's creativity? This is far from the first instance since DC's New 52 began.

***CHECK OUT MY COMIC TRADING LIST, CLICK HERE***

***TRADE VIDEO GAMES WITH ME, CLICK HERE***

***TRADE COMIC CARDS WITH ME, CLICK HERE***

Make sure that you read and understand the forum rules here
padreglcc
Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2013 4:41:43 PM

Rank: Celestial
Groups: Approver, CR-Guidelines, CR-Management, DC Host, Forum Admin, Member, Moderator, New Releases Host, Reviews Host, Subscriber

Joined: 5/6/2007
Posts: 4,202
Points: 437,999
Location: Bangor, Michigan
I get the frustration by creative teams, especially if decisions are being made late in the game, or changed. I get feeling stifled when editors try to give directives to creative people. I get that readers are there because of the creators, not the editorial staff. I get that. I do.

At the same time, the creators don't own the characters - the company does. The editors have been hired by the company, in part, to steer their properties. In my opinion, it's editorial's job to guide the creators in the use of the properties (although they apparently haven't been doing a great job of that).

On top of that, DC had the opportunity, with the New 52, to build to a universe with continuity and direction, in which all titles fit into an overall goal, as opposed to letting creators do whatever the heck they wanted and having other creators retconning things later. Granted, that hasn't worked out (see the massive recon that already happened to StormWatch which in turn affected Demon Knights and JL Dark, and the apparent disappearance of Hellsponte, Voodoo, Grifter, Fairchild, Deathblow, and pretty much every other WildStorm character, and dropped plotlines in Red Hood, Teen Titans, Legion of Super-Heroes and the abandonment of the Harvet/N.O.W.H.E.R.E. story). Once again, it's editorials' job to have storylines moving the way the company wants, as opposed to whatever the creators feel like doing.

For me, this is not an issue of editors smacking down creators. Without being in the loop I can only guess, but my feeling is that the editorial division isn't overstepping its bounds, but that it's going about its job in the wrong way. It appears to me that this is less about stifling the creator and more about poor communication and direction up front, or changes made to given direction at the last minute.

“One of the most sincere forms of respect is actually listening to what another has to say.” ~ Bryant H. McGill

Please make sure you read and understand the Forum Rules here.
Jim
Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2013 5:31:42 PM

Rank: CCL Mobile App Dev
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/16/2007
Posts: 10,419
Points: 10,096,227
Location: Everett, WA
padreglcc wrote:
I get the frustration by creative teams, especially if decisions are being made late in the game, or changed. I get feeling stifled when editors try to give directives to creative people. I get that readers are there because of the creators, not the editorial staff. I get that. I do.

At the same time, the creators don't own the characters - the company does. The editors have been hired by the company, in part, to steer their properties. In my opinion, it's editorial's job to guide the creators in the use of the properties (although they apparently haven't been doing a great job of that).

On top of that, DC had the opportunity, with the New 52, to build to a universe with continuity and direction, in which all titles fit into an overall goal, as opposed to letting creators do whatever the heck they wanted and having other creators retconning things later. Granted, that hasn't worked out (see the massive recon that already happened to StormWatch which in turn affected Demon Knights and JL Dark, and the apparent disappearance of Hellsponte, Voodoo, Grifter, Fairchild, Deathblow, and pretty much every other WildStorm character, and dropped plotlines in Red Hood, Teen Titans, Legion of Super-Heroes and the abandonment of the Harvet/N.O.W.H.E.R.E. story). Once again, it's editorials' job to have storylines moving the way the company wants, as opposed to whatever the creators feel like doing.

For me, this is not an issue of editors smacking down creators. Without being in the loop I can only guess, but my feeling is that the editorial division isn't overstepping its bounds, but that it's going about its job in the wrong way. It appears to me that this is less about stifling the creator and more about poor communication and direction up front, or changes made to given direction at the last minute.


+1

I mentioned this in the Facebook CCL group posting but it appears to me that this creative team is attempting to use the book and characters as a pulpit to push an agenda. As you mentioned, padreglcc, the company and characters are not owned by the creative teams who are hired to write stories that appeal to the most people possible in an effort to make money. Its the editors job to try and guide the creative teams to make this happen.

Personally, if it means that much to them they really should start their own comic book and write stories they are so passionate about. If they are good then people will buy. When you work for DC you gotta write DC stories...

CCL Android app
CCL Android Free app
CCL Windows Phone app
Tamwood
Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2013 5:41:19 PM

Rank: Herald of Galactus
Groups: Approver, Member, Subscriber

Joined: 11/13/2009
Posts: 1,626
Points: 147,863
Location: Indiana
Some people are also pushing this as refusing to allow a gay marriage in the DCU. With the exception of Aquaman, pretty much EVERY marriage that was pre- New 52 has been erased. It's a ban on marriages, not a ban on GAY marriage.
padreglcc
Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2013 6:01:52 PM

Rank: Celestial
Groups: Approver, CR-Guidelines, CR-Management, DC Host, Forum Admin, Member, Moderator, New Releases Host, Reviews Host, Subscriber

Joined: 5/6/2007
Posts: 4,202
Points: 437,999
Location: Bangor, Michigan
Tamwood wrote:
Some people are also pushing this as refusing to allow a gay marriage in the DCU. With the exception of Aquaman, pretty much EVERY marriage that was pre- New 52 has been erased. It's a ban on marriages, not a ban on GAY marriage.

Something that the creators did acknowledge. They said the characters could get engaged, but that it would never result in marriage.

“One of the most sincere forms of respect is actually listening to what another has to say.” ~ Bryant H. McGill

Please make sure you read and understand the Forum Rules here.
BurningDoom
Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2013 6:37:21 PM

Rank: Beyonder
Groups: Beta, Guru, Member, Moderator, Movies Host, Subscriber, TV Host

Joined: 1/5/2007
Posts: 12,395
Points: 59,863
Location: Redding, CA
You all make good points, and I might agree, IF this was the first time. This isn't first time, second time, or even third time. Multiple writers have walked out of DC Comics' doors since New 52 has started. There is something very wrong going on with DC editorial.

***CHECK OUT MY COMIC TRADING LIST, CLICK HERE***

***TRADE VIDEO GAMES WITH ME, CLICK HERE***

***TRADE COMIC CARDS WITH ME, CLICK HERE***

Make sure that you read and understand the forum rules here
padreglcc
Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2013 6:42:53 PM

Rank: Celestial
Groups: Approver, CR-Guidelines, CR-Management, DC Host, Forum Admin, Member, Moderator, New Releases Host, Reviews Host, Subscriber

Joined: 5/6/2007
Posts: 4,202
Points: 437,999
Location: Bangor, Michigan
BurningDoom wrote:
You all make good points, and I might agree, IF this was the first time. This isn't first time, second time, or even third time. Multiple writers have walked out of DC Comics' doors since New 52 has started. There is something very wrong going on with DC editorial.

You may be very right about this. As I mentioned earlier, it seems pretty obvious that at the very least the editorial staff is not communicating well with the creative staff. But as a counterpoint to that, I wonder if we aren't seeing the result of artists and writers being essentially given free reign at the Big Two for the past couple of decades and then DC trying to reassert more control. Is it possible that along with editors who don't seem to be doing a good job, we're also seeing talent that doesn't like not getting their way like they're used to?

“One of the most sincere forms of respect is actually listening to what another has to say.” ~ Bryant H. McGill

Please make sure you read and understand the Forum Rules here.
SuperSoldier124
Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2013 8:10:27 PM

Rank: Celestial
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/3/2007
Posts: 2,947
Points: 8,902
Location: Falcon, Colorado
Jim wrote:
padreglcc wrote:
I get the frustration by creative teams, especially if decisions are being made late in the game, or changed. I get feeling stifled when editors try to give directives to creative people. I get that readers are there because of the creators, not the editorial staff. I get that. I do.

At the same time, the creators don't own the characters - the company does. The editors have been hired by the company, in part, to steer their properties. In my opinion, it's editorial's job to guide the creators in the use of the properties (although they apparently haven't been doing a great job of that).

On top of that, DC had the opportunity, with the New 52, to build to a universe with continuity and direction, in which all titles fit into an overall goal, as opposed to letting creators do whatever the heck they wanted and having other creators retconning things later. Granted, that hasn't worked out (see the massive recon that already happened to StormWatch which in turn affected Demon Knights and JL Dark, and the apparent disappearance of Hellsponte, Voodoo, Grifter, Fairchild, Deathblow, and pretty much every other WildStorm character, and dropped plotlines in Red Hood, Teen Titans, Legion of Super-Heroes and the abandonment of the Harvet/N.O.W.H.E.R.E. story). Once again, it's editorials' job to have storylines moving the way the company wants, as opposed to whatever the creators feel like doing.

For me, this is not an issue of editors smacking down creators. Without being in the loop I can only guess, but my feeling is that the editorial division isn't overstepping its bounds, but that it's going about its job in the wrong way. It appears to me that this is less about stifling the creator and more about poor communication and direction up front, or changes made to given direction at the last minute.


+1

I mentioned this in the Facebook CCL group posting but it appears to me that this creative team is attempting to use the book and characters as a pulpit to push an agenda. As you mentioned, padreglcc, the company and characters are not owned by the creative teams who are hired to write stories that appeal to the most people possible in an effort to make money. Its the editors job to try and guide the creative teams to make this happen.

Personally, if it means that much to them they really should start their own comic book and write stories they are so passionate about. If they are good then people will buy. When you work for DC you gotta write DC stories...


agreed whole hardheartedly with both of you. the talent can walk and fans will be mad but the world still turns and the books will still get published. not the first time editorial has messed stuff up and wont be the last. and like stated already if the team doesn't like it... start a book with image or dark horse. can't really say i side with the creative team or the editors but hey DC owns the characters.

add me on xbox live and PSN

PS3: wartorn11b
360: precious blood1

outcast
Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2013 9:12:20 PM
Rank: Large Noggin
Groups: Member, Newsstand Edition Host

Joined: 7/28/2012
Posts: 418
Points: 1,840
Yes, the company owns the characters.

Yes, the company has the legal and moral right to set a direction for stories about the characters that it owns. That extends to banning marriage for its characters, if the company wants to limit itself in that way.

But what seems to me disingenuous and unethical is the treatment of creators. Williams and Blackman complained of being shut down on several storylines, consistently at the last moment. It's as if DC policy is to string the creative people along for as long as possible without telling them that the editor has already decided to disallow their longer-term story plans. Because, y'know, if an editor told his creative people too soon that a later story would be disallowed, then the creative people might quit sooner rather than later, and that might have a detrimental effect on the company's financial goals.

Yes, the company owns the characters. Yes, the company has the legal and moral right to set a direction for stories about the characters that it owns. But for DC to conceal pertinent creative decisions from its creative people is, on a human and a social level, inexcusable.
SuperSoldier124
Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2013 9:31:27 PM

Rank: Celestial
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/3/2007
Posts: 2,947
Points: 8,902
Location: Falcon, Colorado
true. but they also tend to leak stuff on accident too. i can see the need to keep them in the dark on some stuff. but who knows. we can only speculate. best of the luck to the two in the industry.

add me on xbox live and PSN

PS3: wartorn11b
360: precious blood1

Khaine
Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2013 9:35:19 PM
Rank: Eternal
Groups: Member, Subscriber

Joined: 6/3/2013
Posts: 237
Points: 731
Maybe DC isn't paying well enough for those creative teams to make the headaches worth sticking around.

My boss changes stuff up in a moments notice, you stuck it up and do what they say cause at the end of the week the paycheck is good and I need it to put food on the table and keep the lights on.
SwiftMann
Posted: Thursday, September 05, 2013 11:04:41 PM

Rank: Beyonder
Groups: Approver, CCL Feature Crew, CR-Guidelines, Member, Super Seller

Shop at My Store

Joined: 4/19/2007
Posts: 11,236
Points: 1,898,265
Location: PA
padreglcc wrote:
it seems pretty obvious that at the very least the editorial staff is not communicating well with the creative staff.

I've been told stories of this at cons and at the bars after by creators going back years now. This has been happening at DC since Didio became EIC (or whatever his title was). It's not a New 52 thing.

And it is a massive problem.

Has DC Done Something Stupid Today?

"The return of beards and 90's fashion makes hipsters and homeless people impossible to tell apart." - Woody, Quantum & Woody #5
kisstour03
Posted: Friday, September 06, 2013 6:30:01 PM

Rank: Large Noggin
Groups: Member, Subscriber

Joined: 12/24/2012
Posts: 300
Points: 900
Location: Canada
This is one of my favorite DC books. Not good news.
Atilla2k
Posted: Friday, September 06, 2013 6:49:38 PM

Rank: Herald of Galactus
Groups: Approver, Member, Subscriber

Joined: 10/8/2007
Posts: 1,540
Points: 89,048
Location: NY
They broke up Lois & Clark, this isn't an indictment on gays for goodness sake! The big 2 just hate marriage b/c they're all a bunch of bitter divorcées who don't know how to write married couple stories...

SuperSoldier124
Posted: Friday, September 06, 2013 7:18:36 PM

Rank: Celestial
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/3/2007
Posts: 2,947
Points: 8,902
Location: Falcon, Colorado
To be honest though, I don't wanna read married couple stories..

add me on xbox live and PSN

PS3: wartorn11b
360: precious blood1

padreglcc
Posted: Friday, September 06, 2013 10:02:57 PM

Rank: Celestial
Groups: Approver, CR-Guidelines, CR-Management, DC Host, Forum Admin, Member, Moderator, New Releases Host, Reviews Host, Subscriber

Joined: 5/6/2007
Posts: 4,202
Points: 437,999
Location: Bangor, Michigan
SuperSoldier124 wrote:
To be honest though, I don't wanna read married couple stories..

Tension is an essential element of storytelling. Romantic/sexual tension is one easy way to introduce this tension into stories and maintain it long term. Marriage often undoes that tension (the "will they or won't they" factor is gone) and consequently the story is often less interesting.

“One of the most sincere forms of respect is actually listening to what another has to say.” ~ Bryant H. McGill

Please make sure you read and understand the Forum Rules here.
padreglcc
Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 3:04:40 PM

Rank: Celestial
Groups: Approver, CR-Guidelines, CR-Management, DC Host, Forum Admin, Member, Moderator, New Releases Host, Reviews Host, Subscriber

Joined: 5/6/2007
Posts: 4,202
Points: 437,999
Location: Bangor, Michigan
DC has named a new writer for Batwoman and Dan DiDio took some time at the start of the DC panel at Baltimore to give DC's perspective on what's.going on. Read the CBR article here.

“One of the most sincere forms of respect is actually listening to what another has to say.” ~ Bryant H. McGill

Please make sure you read and understand the Forum Rules here.
SuperSoldier124
Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 4:32:29 PM

Rank: Celestial
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/3/2007
Posts: 2,947
Points: 8,902
Location: Falcon, Colorado
padreglcc wrote:
SuperSoldier124 wrote:
To be honest though, I don't wanna read married couple stories..

Tension is an essential element of storytelling. Romantic/sexual tension is one easy way to introduce this tension into stories and maintain it long term. Marriage often undoes that tension (the "will they or won't they" factor is gone) and consequently the story is often less interesting.
yeah i guess. but i still dont wanna read about batman being (banned) off uz he got c hewed out for not taking out the trash. i hope they foc us more on the ac tion. if i wanted drama i'd read drama books. or hang ouyt by high school like some creepy dude lol

add me on xbox live and PSN

PS3: wartorn11b
360: precious blood1

kisstour03
Posted: Saturday, September 07, 2013 5:43:53 PM

Rank: Large Noggin
Groups: Member, Subscriber

Joined: 12/24/2012
Posts: 300
Points: 900
Location: Canada
There seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for the new writer. Here's hoping.
Atilla2k
Posted: Sunday, September 08, 2013 12:14:48 AM

Rank: Herald of Galactus
Groups: Approver, Member, Subscriber

Joined: 10/8/2007
Posts: 1,540
Points: 89,048
Location: NY
padreglcc wrote:
Tension is an essential element of storytelling. Romantic/sexual tension is one easy way to introduce this tension into stories and maintain it long term. Marriage often undoes that tension (the "will they or won't they" factor is gone) and consequently the story is often less interesting.


I always enjoyed Pete/MJ stories, there was tension b/c he was off galavanting as Spidey & 1) she didn't know if he'd make it back alive 2) She often felt neglected b/c of his absence. Pete either 1) felt guilty or 2) was oblivious to it. It all comes down to personal taste in the end.

Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS

This page was generated in 0.618 seconds.

ADVERTISEMENT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
All images on comic collector live copyright of their respective publishers. © Copyright 2008, MidTen Media Inc. GOLO241