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COUNTERFEIT COMICS Options
The_Valiant_One
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:58:15 PM

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philv wrote:
I'm writing an essay for my law grad class on the existence of counterfeit comics. I was wondering whether any of you guys knew where I could find information on them? Anything would be helpful but definitely things like: the extent of their existence? is it a highly specialized crime? to what extent are their creators caught and prosecuted? specific case studies would be great. any help would be great!


Hey Philv - I'm the Site Director for CCL, and I've helped contribute to this great thread that got started by the members on this topic - helped identify a couple of the counterfiets floating around myself.

Basically, there's not a whole to tell about these because the comic market is so fickle. Why? Because the definition of what makes an item 'collectable' falls square on the shoulders of the collector. While some dealers, (such as myself) in this business deem these books WORTHLESS, it still doesn't keep others from deemed the book having MODERATE to OUTLANDISH value simply because of their celebratory status as a 'bootleg' comic.

Look at the VENOM: LETHAL PROTECTOR #1 error variant. Word is that someone printing the book ran a series of them through without printing the red foil, and then flooded the market with these as rare printings. ERROR implies accidental. BOOTLEG implies forgery. But the market is divided on the topic. At one time, OVERSTREET (what I consider to be the defacto standard for pricing comics) values this book as worthless. However, WIZARD (a 'hipper' comic price guide found on the shelves of bookstores and department stores) at one time gave this book a TREMENDOUS value. Then CGC might grade a bootleg, (as they did with the THOR #1 GOLD) and then the infamy and confusion begins anew.

Oh, and as far as identifying a book, like the THOR #1 and the WORLD WAR HULK #1 GOLD as bootlegs? Word came from Marvel themselves on this one to me.

TO sum it up, it's all relative as far as value goes on this topic. I would wager it's also VERY hard to prosecute someone for forgery of comics because, well, half the industry frowns upon it, while the other half supports it by buying the books and keeping the circulating which add to their mythical status.

Good luck on your paper. If you need anything else, let us know.






vacantpassenger
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:14:43 PM

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The_Valiant_One wrote:
Look at the VENOM: LETHAL PROTECTOR #1 error variant. Word is that someone printing the book ran a series of them through without printing the red foil, and then flooded the market with these as rare printings. ERROR implies accidental. BOOTLEG implies forgery. But the market is divided on the topic. At one time, OVERSTREET (what I consider to be the defacto standard for pricing comics) values this book as worthless. However, WIZARD (a 'hipper' comic price guide found on the shelves of bookstores and department stores) at one time gave this book a TREMENDOUS value. Then CGC might grade a bootleg, (as they did with the THOR #1 GOLD) and then the infamy and confusion begins anew.


I just wanted to point out that the Venom: Lethal Protector #1 Error cover is a GENUINE comic. A few cases were accidentially shipped by Marvel before the error was realized. Overstreet, Wizard, CBG all know this is a legitamate item.

There were however counterfeits made of the error, which I am currently trying to re-find a scan for. What is pictured in the thread is a genuine copy. CGC is aware if how to detect originals from counterfeits.

The_Valiant_One
Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:20:48 PM

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vacantpassenger wrote:
The_Valiant_One wrote:
Look at the VENOM: LETHAL PROTECTOR #1 error variant. Word is that someone printing the book ran a series of them through without printing the red foil, and then flooded the market with these as rare printings. ERROR implies accidental. BOOTLEG implies forgery. But the market is divided on the topic. At one time, OVERSTREET (what I consider to be the defacto standard for pricing comics) values this book as worthless. However, WIZARD (a 'hipper' comic price guide found on the shelves of bookstores and department stores) at one time gave this book a TREMENDOUS value. Then CGC might grade a bootleg, (as they did with the THOR #1 GOLD) and then the infamy and confusion begins anew.


I just wanted to point out that the Venom: Lethal Protector #1 Error cover is a GENUINE comic. A few cases were accidentially shipped by Marvel before the error was realized. Overstreet, Wizard, CBG all know this is a legitamate item.

There were however counterfeits made of the error, which I am currently trying to re-find a scan for. What is pictured in the thread is a genuine copy. CGC is aware if how to detect originals from counterfeits.


Please accept my apologies on that one - looks like I got my Overstreet wording mixed up. The Error IS considered a variant - (looks like 58 copies have been graded by CGC since year 2000 when this was printed) and is valued at $150.00. They do make mention of a black counterfeit in the book, which is worthless. My bad, guys...











philv
Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2008 3:30:22 PM
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Is there any way that I could get in touch with Marvel's legal department in person seeing as they probably have the most information on the stuff?
Do you know of any cases where people were actually prosecuted for forgeries?
What are the different types of forgeries that you are aware of?
Are there any noticed methods for forging a known comic?
Is there any way to estimate the number in circulation?

thanks for all the help so far! I'll make sure to credit you in my research once i've found enough information.
vacantpassenger
Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:39:02 PM

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philv wrote:
Is there any way that I could get in touch with Marvel's legal department in person seeing as they probably have the most information on the stuff?


Go to Marvel.com and that will be listed under contact information.

philv wrote:
Do you know of any cases where people were actually prosecuted for forgeries?


I have never heard of any such instances. That would be VERY hard to track down, especially with the size of an aftermarket that comics have. Who really ever knows what came from where?

philv wrote:
What are the different types of forgeries that you are aware of?


Look at the first page of this thread, all of the counterfeits that I am aware of have been pictured in my first post along with detection tips.

philv wrote:
Are there any noticed methods for forging a known comic?

The only method I am aware of, and I'm sure there's more especially now, is the old skool photocopying or scanning and reprinting. Many of the counterfeited comics were of old independently made comics, made on regular newsprint or printerpaper, so counterfeits were easially made.

philv wrote:
Is there any way to estimate the number in circulation?

That's a tough one. There's no real way of knowing because a lot of the time the comics that get counterfeited are of low print run comics, so you really don't want to flood the market with too many counterfeits because then the price is going to drop when people think there are less rare. However, some of the counterfeits mentioned in the first post were actually numbered. Hell, a lot of the times the counterfeits are actually rarer than the comics getting duped! Try finding a Batman #497 Platinum Edition these days, it won't happen.

philv wrote:
thanks for all the help so far! I'll make sure to credit you in my research once i've found enough information.


Let us know what more we can do!

philv
Posted: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:43:41 PM
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hey vacant passenger, thanks for all your help so far. was just doing some more research and was trying to find where you got your info on the batman #497 counterfeits? Its a particularly interesting one given how important the knightfall series is..
vacantpassenger
Posted: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:33:48 PM

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philv wrote:
hey vacant passenger, thanks for all your help so far. was just doing some more research and was trying to find where you got your info on the batman #497 counterfeits? Its a particularly interesting one given how important the knightfall series is..


You mean my lack of info for it? LoL. If you look in Wizard and Overstreet, it will mention the Batman #497 "Platinum Edition" being counterfeit and not published by DC. This is the only info I've ever been able to find about it. If you've found more, please fill me on it.

Also, this shouldn't be confused with Batman #492 Platinum Edition, which is a legit variant.

patn2008
Posted: Monday, January 12, 2009 3:55:24 PM

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i have a question on a few books i got when i lived in the Philippines back in 79-81 Star wars number 1-5

are the considered bootleg or counterfiet?
Batman007
Posted: Monday, January 12, 2009 5:39:03 PM

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patn2008 wrote:
i have a question on a few books i got when i lived in the Philippines back in 79-81 Star wars number 1-5

are the considered bootleg or counterfiet?


In order to give you an answer I'd need to see images of the books. Also, do they have an indicia (small font with publisher information, issue title, date, etc. in the front or back of the book)? I know that Marvel and DC published a bunch of Philippine versions of their books so these could be genuine.
patn2008
Posted: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:49:22 PM

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they have reg typewriter font where the upc code should be located
patn2008
Posted: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:53:41 PM

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hey thanks when i figure out what short box i have them in i'll scan them i know they aint worth anything due to where their from and condition of them
Batman007
Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:46:48 AM

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I'll be here.
Philli
Posted: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 2:17:28 AM

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I think it'd be about time to un-sticky this thread or just delete it. Batman007 was the last to comment it. I sure do miss that guy.



comicscastle
Posted: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 2:34:47 AM

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Philli wrote:
I think it'd be about time to un-sticky this thread or just delete it. Batman007 was the last to comment it. I sure do miss that guy.
No, the thread is here so buyers can see what the difference is between real and counterfeit books. It doesn't need comments.



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12345comics
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 2:18:01 PM

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thank you for bringing this to my attention

Having Fun Yet ?
Sirs
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 2:49:54 PM

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Just thought I'd bring to the attention that there is also a Gold variant of Anita Blake issue #1 there is a small number known to exist 1 has been CGCed @9.8 I know because I was kinda lucky kinda not to have bought one of these. My wife who collects them(anita blake) was whom I'd got it for only to find out it was an aftermarket (what Marvel called them) comic. Either way she is tickled to have 1 of the few made and also ticked because it was not valid. I can say this I've collected alot of variants but this is just as good if not better than one put out normally. There is no way these books are not done by the regular printers they are to good, they've had to have been done by someone at the printers and stuck aside they are just to good and their always the first printing from what I've seen. Anyway just figured I'd let people know about it.

You Gotta Go Here


If you can help with anything please check this out

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vacantpassenger
Posted: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:36:08 PM

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Sirs wrote:
Just thought I'd bring to the attention that there is also a Gold variant of Anita Blake issue #1 there is a small number known to exist 1 has been CGCed @9.8 I know because I was kinda lucky kinda not to have bought one of these. My wife who collects them(anita blake) was whom I'd got it for only to find out it was an aftermarket (what Marvel called them) comic. Either way she is tickled to have 1 of the few made and also ticked because it was not valid. I can say this I've collected alot of variants but this is just as good if not better than one put out normally. There is no way these books are not done by the regular printers they are to good, they've had to have been done by someone at the printers and stuck aside they are just to good and their always the first printing from what I've seen. Anyway just figured I'd let people know about it.


If it wans't approved by Marvel, then it's counterfeit. If you can, please scan it and PM it to me so that I can add it to the list in the front! Thanks for bring this to our attention.

Sirs
Posted: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:39:43 PM

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hey no big deal what got me it was a bigger dealer who sold it to us at a con

You Gotta Go Here


If you can help with anything please check this out

Our Little Binga
negge77
Posted: Monday, September 07, 2009 9:15:57 AM

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Ok so first I realy had no idea that people put out what is realy counterfit books I mean first what is the point of doing books from the 90's they printed so many anyway also that's just low I guess some people just have no respect for anything any more not to mention that when you buy a book you should always look it over first and that's why I do not buy on ebay. I have seen so many people I know get ripped off from the people that are on there. I mean ebay should be told about the people passing out fakes and they should be banned and reported to the cops or who ever handles that cause hey its not just wrong it:s fraud!
God I miss the old days when you just went down to the shop and got your books, then sat there talkn crap about every book you've read and some the other person read ahhh the good old days Daydreaming Daydreaming Daydreaming
The_Valiant_One
Posted: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:27:54 PM

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negge77 wrote:
Ok so first I realy had no idea that people put out what is realy counterfit books I mean first what is the point of doing books from the 90's they printed so many anyway also that's just low I guess some people just have no respect for anything any more not to mention that when you buy a book you should always look it over first and that's why I do not buy on ebay. I have seen so many people I know get ripped off from the people that are on there. I mean ebay should be told about the people passing out fakes and they should be banned and reported to the cops or who ever handles that cause hey its not just wrong it:s fraud!
God I miss the old days when you just went down to the shop and got your books, then sat there talkn crap about every book you've read and some the other person read ahhh the good old days Daydreaming Daydreaming Daydreaming


No doubt. I'm really encouraged by the dedication of this thread to bring the information about counterfeit comics in an easy format to our members kudos to everyone for their contributions to this thread.







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