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yeah, it continues to mystify me that CGC does not consider certain restoration (like pressing), restoration.
The fact that they admit it at least shows a little integrity (as most transparency does), but it just aint a point that most agree with them on....for obvious common sense reasons.
That being said, I am about to plunk down a very nice chunk of change on a slabbed book as early as this weekend probably.
Ahhh.....the vagaries of an obsessive collector.
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Neat! Would someone explain to me how this was done, so I can begin doing the same to make a crapton of money??
The fact that the condition can change so much simply because the damage is only visible on the back cover and not the front is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Spine damage on the back is still spine damage.
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Thundercron wrote:Neat! Would someone explain to me how this was done, so I can begin doing the same to make a crapton of money??
The fact that the condition can change so much simply because the damage is only visible on the back cover and not the front is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Spine damage on the back is still spine damage. Don't forget they in order to do this, they have basically created a spine roll. A book with a some roll, albeit a small one, can apparently rank up at 9.2... It shouldn't ever rank that high, but apparently CGC says it can.
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Doesn't look like the same copy to me, unless they did more than press and realign the cover. In the 8.5 at the bottom of the A of Avengers there is a small white mark in the black. That is not there in the 9.2. Under the A in Earth on the 8.5 there is a small white dot that is not there on the 9.2. And the green color of Loki's tunic above the red text box is smoother in the 9.2 and has more green dots in the 8.5. I think it is a different book.
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How does a book with that much of a cover misalignment (forget the spine damage) even get a grade that starts with a 9?
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There really aren't enough photos there, before incriminating a guy I'd kind of like to see the back cover where the spine stress was supposedly moved to. That looks like a mis-alingned or mis-chopped cover, not spine roll. If the cover was moved then it should stick out on the backside, if the back were trimmed than it should have been picked up. Maybe the poster will add more photos to prove his point.
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the argument as I understand it is - this seller has several high grade books from CGC with this same condition. Whether it's the same book or not is debatable, but view his other items. Almost all have the same issue of the inner pages extending past the front cover. One or two, yeah ok. 90%? That seems fishy.
That said, this was probably done (based upon comments therein) that they probably pressed it OPEN (as in, tried to press out the original spine crease) and then carefully re-folded the with a new spine fold and pressed it.
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The real issue....and, I admit, I could be wrong....is that this guy isn't doing anything "wrong".
This kind of restoration (but don't dare call it that) is allowed by CGC. So, it actually behooves someone who has the skill to do something like this, to actually do it.
Because, while most of the collecting world, would consider this duplicitous and restoration, or maybe even destruction...CGC itself says it isnt, and grades the books according to their view, thus greatly increasing their actual re-sale value, while at the same time defacing and destroying the book.
And......people buy it.
It's like straw gun sales.
Anybody who is able to pass a background check is able to buy all kinds of guns, then re-sell them to anyone they want to (whether that person is a criminal or not). then when that person they sold the guns to uses them to commit a crime....well, that original buyer is not doing anything "wrong"
This seller ain't doing anything "wrong"....but he's for sure doing something wrong. Just like the straw gun seller.
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Only in the world of comic collecting is the act of restoring something--whether it's to improve the look of the book, or altering it to prevent further decay--considered bad. Restore an old, historical biulding? GOOD! Restore the Declaration of Independance? GOOD! Restore a classic, rare car? GOOD! Restore a comic book?
BAD!
BAD BAD BAD!
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That is a very good point thundercron.
I do think, though, that the largest part of the problem isn't the mere fact that the comics are restored.....it's that the restoration isn't admitted. It's not transparent. Know what i mean?
In the case of cars.....when buying a car in cherry condition, you'd want to know if it was factory fresh or worn out and restored. You'd pay more for the factory fresh one (and be plenty (banned) if you found out later that the seller had sold you a restored car at factory fresh prices without telling you), wouldn't you?
After all, people purchase Slabbed comics with the restoration seal on them all the time. They simply don't expect to pay as much as they would for one that is factory fresh.
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Thundercron wrote:Only in the world of comic collecting is the act of restoring something--whether it's to improve the look of the book, or altering it to prevent further decay--considered bad. Restore an old, historical biulding? GOOD! Restore the Declaration of Independance? GOOD! Restore a classic, rare car? GOOD! Restore a comic book?
BAD!
BAD BAD BAD! Well you have to consider what kind of restoration it is. For example a 68 Camaro restored with all new parts and tons of bondo is worth just a little more then a rusted out bucket. While a factory restored (all old original parts) is worth a mint. So anything with major restoration that adds something new is never going to be worth what an all original is. Also I have never seen where anyone says restoring is bad just not worth as much. I however think CGC is seriously missing the boat on pressing. It is obvious restoration just too hard to spot so they ignore it. It is why everyone presses books now to get over on CGC. If they admitted they couldnt find a certain type of color restoration then everyone would do that as well.
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Spider-Man wrote:Doesn't look like the same copy to me, unless they did more than press and realign the cover. In the 8.5 at the bottom of the A of Avengers there is a small white mark in the black. That is not there in the 9.2. Under the A in Earth on the 8.5 there is a small white dot that is not there on the 9.2. And the green color of Loki's tunic above the red text box is smoother in the 9.2 and has more green dots in the 8.5. I think it is a different book. The seller admitted it was same book on another forum.
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I don't mind comics being restored. But I would like to know beforehand. I like to know what I'm buying. If I bought that comic, then found out it was restored but was never told, then I'd be upset.
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CGC is in a tough spot on this, pressing doesn't add anything or take anything away, it just re-shapes what's there. I don't know how they could detect it, maybe someday there will be a machine that can pick it up but in the meantime they have to work with the technology they've got. What I don't care for is having CGC's where there are obvious flaws that aren't punished because they could be pressed or cleaned. I have a 9.6 with a faint 1/2 inch bend, no chance in heck I'd ever list it raw as a 9.6. Personally I don't like dealing much in CGC's anymore, I've even been cracking some books out of their cases. My 7 foot stack is down to about 2 1/2 feet & will shrink further. PS - if the seller admitted it then I stand corrected. My big question would be how he moved all the covers without trimming the back or moving the holes, seems like there's some other stuff there that CGC should have picked up on.
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CrossbowComics wrote:CGC is in a tough spot on this, pressing doesn't add anything or take anything away, it just re-shapes what's there. I don't know how they could detect it, maybe someday there will be a machine that can pick it up but in the meantime they have to work with the technology they've got.
Why do you need technology to see it? You can see it plainly with your eyes. The pages underneath stick way out in comparison to the cover. You can easily tell it's been rolled.
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BurningDoom wrote:CrossbowComics wrote:CGC is in a tough spot on this, pressing doesn't add anything or take anything away, it just re-shapes what's there. I don't know how they could detect it, maybe someday there will be a machine that can pick it up but in the meantime they have to work with the technology they've got.
Why do you need technology to see it? You can see it plainly with your eyes. The pages underneath stick way out in comparison to the cover. You can easily tell it's been rolled. My statement was just about pressing, what you see is someone moving the cover, and I don't know how they did it without something sticking out on the back and/or trimming it. Rolling comes from being in a stack where the spine curls up and the pages don't line up on the right edge anymore, it's the back 16 pages that move & not the front 1 though.
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The reason CGC doesnt consider pressing a restoration is because they own and operate a pressing company ( HERE). So they give you a 9.6 and claim small indentation they recommend you have it pressed at CCS and BAM its a 9.8. This way you not only pay to have it slabbed twice but pay to have it pressed. LMAO if that doesnt show you its all just a crock I dont know what does. Also on side note I recently sold a rare comic signed by Romita to a regular of mine. He recently emailed me and said he met one of the guys from CGC and he worked out some deal where if he pays to have Stan Lee sign it at some signing party they would CGC the whole thing as signature series. So I am waiting to see if it happens because I have all the original scans of book saved and want to see if they overlook the "In person" part to give it a "S" slab.
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CrossbowComics wrote:
Rolling comes from being in a stack where the spine curls up and the pages don't line up on the right edge anymore, it's the back 16 pages that move & not the front 1 though.
I think what he does it press the book flat then refolds it with the center line now 1/4 inch in the back then represses it. This way the staples are now a 1/4" on back and hides cover issues. It also makes the back 16 pages stick out like in pic.
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freakdylan wrote:The reason CGC doesnt consider pressing a restoration is because they own and operate a pressing company ( HERE). So they give you a 9.6 and claim small indentation they recommend you have it pressed at CCS and BAM its a 9.8. This way you not only pay to have it slabbed twice but pay to have it pressed. LMAO if that doesnt show you its all just a crock I dont know what does. Also on side note I recently sold a rare comic signed by Romita to a regular of mine. He recently emailed me and said he met one of the guys from CGC and he worked out some deal where if he pays to have Stan Lee sign it at some signing party they would CGC the whole thing as signature series. So I am waiting to see if it happens because I have all the original scans of book saved and want to see if they overlook the "In person" part to give it a "S" slab. Their info blurb about pressing comes off a little condescending IMO.
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