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Currently in our Data Base the first appearance of Mystique (Raven Darkholme) is stated as being in Ms. Marvel(1997) #18. However, the character actually appears in the previous issue as the doppelganger of Nick Fury, Contessa de la Fontaine and an unnamed female S.H.I.E.L.D. agent.

She does not appear as Mystique but is repeatedly called "Raven" by her minion. When she shifts between aspects there is a shimmering but her true form is not revealed.

Which issue is the true "First Appearance"?

And begin!

It's actually #16 of the 1977 series, Howie. I remember adding that when I was doing some of my earliest CRs some 6 years ago. It could be classed as a cameo, as it was maybe just one page, but first appearance is a first appearance. Perhaps that note should be removed from #18.

This is the first appearance; panels 2 and 3 (#16)



and second appearance, first full "reveal" (#18)

According to the latest Overstreet, #16 is the first brief appearance, #17 is a brief cameo, and #18 is the first full appearance.

She's in #17 impersonating Nick Fury. It runs for a few pages, so more than a brief cameo this time. Which leads to one more CR. The other character she's with isn't listed, and there's a letter from Kevin Dooley....

I totally missed that cameo in #16! Good eye.

In #17 she impersonates Nick Fury for several pages and then a female S.H.I.E.L.D. agent (not named) for 4 panels before switching to the Contessa for 2 panels.

I don't get that at all. A first appearance is a first appearance. Who cares if it's "in shadow" or "in disguise" or "cameo" or whatever. Makes no sense to me at all.

Why Cant the first appearance be the 1st time a full body picture is shown. This is something ill never understand "brief" "cameo" "full" I understand the definitions of them but the 1st app. should be the 1st appearance of the character ever. simple be it brief cameo or full. this would make things so much easier. I do however agree with 1st golden/silver age app. These books usually feature a different lead character filling the role (i.e. green lantern) or they have a new origin or something else. However I recently looked at the guide and it list ASM #298 as a venom Cameo...Its a arm thats it so is it truly a cameo. 299 is a cameo it features the full body picture of venom and 300 is the 1st full version. 299 should be the 1st appearance however granted it is only a "Cameo". It really falls into what the collectors want though. This will be a topic that has gone on for years and will continue to go on for many many more. However with the recent jump in modern prices and people grabbing any "1st app" issue maybe there should be a absolute standard to which we all have to adhere to. maybe a scale like if the full body of said character is shown then its a 1st app...etc etc listing qualifiers we all have to follow as collectors and sellers would make things allot easier. However everyone who has a hulk 181 instead of 180 as the prize piece in the collection would probably disagree with this. lol

I hate the cameo and full and all that nonsense too. Just a way to trump up more issues.

That said, I think there are two distinct "first appearances." The first is #16 being the first appearance of Raven Darkholme. The second is #18 being the first appearance of Raven Darkholme as Mystique.

I agree with that you have the 1st time the person is mention and then you have the secret id 1st app it really is almost like 2 different characters sometimes so I can understand that

16.

What about characters who initially appear as normals and then later gain powers, etc.?

Jim Rhodes first appeared in Iron Man #118 and then was Iron Man II starting in IM #170 before becoming War Machine in IM #282. Is IM #118 the first appearance of War Machine by association?

How about Dr. Karla Sofen AKA Moonstone. She debuted in Captain America #192 as the gun moll of Dr. Faustus and then three years later, in Incredible Hulk #228, she got her powers and costume. Which is the true 1st appearance of Moonstone?

First appearances aren't always very dramatic. Think Darkseid showing up on a video screen in one panel of Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #134

Great conversation!

The whole secret identity vs. costumed persona makes sense to me. War Machine was not in Iron Man #118, for example.

As for cameo appearances go...it's all in what the collector likes, and also general relevance. It's accepted that full appearances are more relevant (ie, desirable) than brief appearance. That's reflected all over the price guide, not in just first appearances.

Carol Danvers' first appearance was in an issue of Captain Marvel, but Ms. Marvel first appeared in Ms. Marvel #1.

I personally believe that the "first appearance" should be as an actual part of the story. Venom's first appearance is ASM #300, because it's the first real Venom story. His full appearance in #299 didn't add anything to the story told IN #299. And his fist in #298 even less so.

Part of the reason why I don't understand why the Doomsday "fist" issues are so popular.